Where are all the Pebble Beach Photographs?!?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by 134282, Aug 21, 2017.

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  1. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    Maybe the mods could split the discussion about right or wrong restorations and keep this thread for the nice pictures?
     
  2. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    #102 ferrarip4, Aug 30, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The Stradale turns 50 and the Alfa Museo Storio has a special exhibit of their 33 Stradale Prototype (the one with 4 headlights, arguably the most beautiful of them all!)

    New Exhibit Celebrates Alfa Romeo 33 Stradale?s 50th Birthday - Motor Trend

    Franco Scaglione is not only the father of the 33 (arguably the most beautiful car in the world, at least in my eyes), but also the amazing BAT cars, the beautiful but never produced Sportiva (which inspired the 8C Competizione) and the Giulietta Sprint Speciale... One most underrated designer.
    Alfa-Romeo-33-Stradale-Museo-Storio-03-S.jpg
    Alfa-Romeo-33-Stradale-Museo-Storio-01-S.jpg
    Alfa-Romeo-33-Stradale-Museo-Storio-02-S.jpg
     
  3. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    #103 ferrarip4, Aug 30, 2017
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    About 0402AM, its shape was clearly inspired by the fantastic 1955 W196S Mercedes Benz 300SLR "Uhlenhaut" Coupe... It is also a more cohesive design (rear window shape) than the Ferrari IMO.

    Here are some photos for comparison.
    autowp.ru_mercedes-benz_300slr_uhlenhaut_coupe_6-S.jpg
    ferrari_375_mm_scaglietti_coupe_speciale_9-S.jpg
    autowp.ru_mercedes-benz_300slr_uhlenhaut_coupe_10-S.jpg
    ferrari_375_mm_scaglietti_coupe_speciale_6-S.jpg
     
  4. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    I would call 0402AM a monstrosity. Mercedes SLR has beautiful body lines. Whereas the Ferrari's looks like the mercedes race transporter of 1954 :)
     
  5. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    You're a bit harsh. They look closely related ;-)
     
  6. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO Formula 3
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    The Mercedes is raw while the Ferrari is more elegant.
     
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  8. miurasv

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  9. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    Thank you Peter, to understand my point of view,
    Finally, better soon than never.
     
  10. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Rookie
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    Hello Timo, put this way your point is quite reasonable as we are talking theoretically. Re Thomassimas, well when spending time with Tom in LA, in 1996 and 2013 and reading the old articles made me wish I could experience them from behind the wheel but seeing T3 in the Fiorano Ferrari museum a couple of years ago it felt just a little over the top, yes.

    Best regards,

    Marc
     
  11. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    I am not sure about the connection between the Uhlenhaut Coupe and 0402AM, would like to find solid proof for such a claim.
     
  12. tomgt

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  13. superleggera

    superleggera Karting

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    Two additional notes about 0402AM (and please excuse the thread drift).

    At PB in 1998 when we brought 0402AM to the lawn, we had the opportunity to ask Sergio Scaglietti several questions through his interpreter who was there that day and conversed with us for 45 minutes. As for the Merc? Sergio never saw the 300SLR nor knew of its existence at the time. I asked about the creation of the cutline in the front fender and he said it was done to reduce the visual mass and to balance visually the shape that they were creating as what they built didn't look right initially. He also added that he reutilized this idea for what later became the pontoon fender Testa Rossa and he took the idea to an extreme in terms of functionality.

    One issue with restorations is old pictures found and the actual camera utilized. Quality of cameras lenses different greatly and lens induced distortion is a big issue in getting a true picture of what was actually there. It is a bigger issue today given the usage of portable cameras and phones with lens quality that is horrifically bad. Most people never discuss this but when doing restoration work it is paramount to understand what actually captured the image itself.
     
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  15. P.Singhof

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    I never questioned the fact that the nose now and the nose in the posted picture looks different, that was not the point. I questioned the prejudgement of the restorers, the owner and the judges just on base of a single picture. I said that most likely the restorers had their reason and thankfully "superleggera" came by and mentioned exactly what I suggested...

    And this was all I criticized!!! And just for that I was made appear as the "bad guy", the one in question is sulky, his buddy jumping to his rescue insists that I am biased because I actually saw the car ;)
    I said back then that I might regret that and today I really feel sorry for wasting my time on that because I could have talked to a parking meter as well...Might have been a little bit more expensive but the response would have been the same :D
     
  16. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    But must accept that sometimes harshness comes with the magic: I guess 0297EU would still run around without the original chrome decoration had Cyril not expressed how shocked he was about the stripped nose.

    Other than that too I think the crowd is in a need of a wake up call. If it takes banging the table with one's fists and yelling so that the chandeliers tinkle, so be it!
     
  17. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    Excellent comment again, thumbs up!
     
  18. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO Formula 3
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    OK, in the case of #0402AM, "superleggera" gave a clear explanation about the restorers reasons. But we could also start a new thread and talk about other cars and the many wrong noses or other parts, and make never ending assumptions (Why #0808 has a wrong body from the front to the rear or why #0070M looks like a Mickey mouse car now, and so on...). Could be interesting.
     
  19. TTR

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    #117 TTR, Aug 30, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2017
    + 1
    Thank you, Sir.
    For decades, I've been telling pretty much the same thing to anyone who'd listen, along with the fact you also mentioned in your earlier post about the in-person observations and analysis of support structures and other related details behind the coachwork, only available during actual hands-on work on any car.
    This is something many of the inter webs/photos-only comparing "experts" don't seem to understand.
     
  20. Lussolover

    Lussolover Karting

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  21. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Rookie
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    I have just read some posts in this thread reproaching me for being a bit aggressive.

    Sorry to everyone !!

    It must come from the fact that winning my life very well and having never earned a penny from Ferrari, I don't need to polish the shoes of the owners and restorers to live.
     
  22. P.Singhof

    P.Singhof Formula 3

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    So you apologize just to imply an insult in the next paragraph???

    Gesendet von meinem SM-G930F mit Tapatalk
     
  23. Aardy

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    Sense of humor ? Yes ? No ?
     
  24. P.Singhof

    P.Singhof Formula 3

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    I am German...so NO [emoji6]

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  25. GIOTTO

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    Come on... I'm close to the border with Germany and I know that you have...
     
  26. Aardy

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    Excellent !! 👍😂
     
  27. Fennicus

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    He is French, you know? ;)

    Cheers,

    Pekka T.
    Fin.
     
  28. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    #126 ferrarip4, Aug 30, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2017
    In the other hand the resemblance is too obvious to be ignored. I will suggest that Sergio, like most designers, is a proud man and would not admit he would be inspired by another car...

    Sent from my LG-H818 using Tapatalk
     
  29. Lussolover

    Lussolover Karting

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    Relative to other people here I dunno crap.


    That being said if you think the the 0402 is ugly I truly recommend an eye exam. I would also refrain from using large knives / power tools or driving until you do so.


    Similarities can be seen between the overall size of 300slr and 0402 but really thats when you are looking in photos. 0402 is much sleeker and skinnier looking. The 300slr is more bubbly and doesn't have the curvature. Really I think over the rear wheel looks similar in photos and gives the impression of a similar shape. 300 slr looks shaped out of a big square where 0402 looks sculpted by the finest most elegant lines ever known to man

    0402 is stunning in person. After seeing it up close in beautiful light it's arguably one of the prettiest ferraris ever made


    Disclaimer just one mans opinion
     
  30. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    I was not exactly guessing when I said that I would like to find solid proof for a claim about any connection between the Uhlenhaut Coupe and 0402AM.

    Lines of 0402AM had been penned long before Uhlenhaut was out and I don't think Mercedes released any premature material on their special coupe project.
     
  31. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie
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    The Uhlenhaut was a (very well made) mix-match of the street 300SL and race 300SLR. I agree and don't think that it necessarily influenced the design of the Ferrari, just a bit of a coincidence. They were designed for different purposes, anyway.

    I like the rear "fastback" treatment of the Mercedes, compared to 0402AM's "boxy" cabin design, but overall I prefer the Ferrari.
     
  32. ferrarip4

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    #130 ferrarip4, Aug 31, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The people from ultimate-car-page claim that the Scaglietti people who converted the spider to coupe body of 0402AM were inspired by the SLR.

    It is also said that Sergio Farina was not responsible for the coupé body which was created by Scaglietti after the car was accidented...

    I believe the spider Pinin Farina body was more like this...
    autowp.ru_ferrari_375_mm_spyder_3.jpg
     
  33. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    #131 kare, Aug 31, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
    Opinions, opinions, opinions.

    Would love to see documentation on the accident too. People always think an accident was needed to initiate a modification or building of a new body as they don't have the faintest idea how CHEAP it was to have a car rebuilt at the time. I am quite sure the car was not crashed before rebodying, several stories are being confused here. The idea of building a Berlinetta to replace the unworthy Pinin Farina body initiated late in 1954. By March-April 1955 it was in construction already, Uhlenhaut was released late in 1955, it had not been shown yet at the time of Le Mans (June 1955). How could Scaglietti be inspired by something that did not exist yet?

    ps. I have no idea why Sergio Farina - or any other person involved with Pinin Farina - would get mentioned here.
     
  34. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    Reference to the accident:
    Jalopnik: deadspin-quote-carrot-aligned-w-bgr-2<\/title><path d="M10,3.5l3-3,3,3Z" style="fill:%23fff;stroke:%23fff"/><path d="M0,3.5H10l3-3,3,3H26" style="fill:none;stroke:%231b3a4d"/><\/svg>')}.f_branding_on.blog-group-deadspin .editor-inner.post-content .pu
    Hemmings: https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2014/08/17/for-first-time-ever-a-ferrari-wins-pebble-beach-best-in-show/


    Reference to the SLR:
    Ferrari Ends Pre-war Domination of Pebble?s Best of Show

    The last link is very interesting....
     
  35. GIOTTO

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    They built two 300-SLR Coupe, both at the DB Museum. #0007/55 and #0008/55.
     
  36. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    Words are cheap, looking for photographic evidence.
     
  37. GIOTTO

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    #135 GIOTTO, Aug 31, 2017
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    First one with blue interior. Second one with red interior. And some body details... They had the plan to race them at the Carrera Panamericana Mexico.
    I think that #0402AM has not much in common with the 300 SLR.
    x-1.jpg
    x-2.jpg
     
  38. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    Oops, I meant the claimed crash into a tree. Don't believe it ever happened. Links are worthless, same stories repeated over and over again...
     
  39. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
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    But, but, but,.... it's all over the interwebs, forums and even printed media, so it must be true, right ?
     
  40. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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  41. superleggera

    superleggera Karting

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    #139 superleggera, Aug 31, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
    0402AM was crashed by Rossellini. There are pictures of the Pinin Farina coachwork pre-crash and post-crash that I've seen but do not have copies of myself.

    Story per Sergio from PB 1998: When he personally delivered the coupe to Rossellini at his Monaco hotel (he drove it the entire way), Roberto came down in his pajamas wearing a bathrobe to look at the Ferrari. He was enthused by it and jumped behind the wheel and took off while Sergio was still standing there -- and he waited and waited and waited. Apparently it was a good long while as he was greatly concerned that Roberto had crashed it again! (Sergio waving his arms when telling this) Finally Roberto reappeared and was ecstatic about the coupe. Only at that point was Sergio actually paid the balance due for the work he did. Sergio was truly concerned that if Roberto crashed it again that he might not get paid... and the money was very important to him to make sure all his workers were paid on time.
     
  42. Lusso123

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    Unfortunately a number of the Pebble Beach &#8220;Best of Show&#8221; winners have been modified from how they were originally built, and I am not referring to paint and interior colors. Some have suffered body modifications and other details. Historical accuracy (which is my thing) unfortunately takes a back seat to PB politics.

    I am not an expert on every car, but I do know the ones that I heavily reserach and make models of. Some discrepancies are very easy to see, and other take more work to find or to see.

    I personally spent a week of my time with 0402AM back in 1998. Photographing, drawing and measuring this car. I was commissioned to make a super detailed one-off 1:12th scale scratch built model of it. The commission was to make the car the way it was restored. I would have preferred to make it historically accurate as to how it looked when first built. The black and white photo showing the correct front grill shape of the car when it was built, was widely available in at least two books, which were both published many years before the first restoration. I am not looking to start an argument, or to debate this further, but photo(s) of the correct front were available when the restoration was performed. I also have a background in professional photography....
    The photo was a very good one, no distortion or other issues that some people have tried to use as a partial explanation.

    As far as people questioning the incorrect grill; this has been brought up in various conversations with some Ferrari experts. Also....there was an article written in detail about this car within recent years, after its PB win, and the incorrect grill shape was asked about, but not answered by parties with the car, hence it was not mentioned at all in the article. Rather disappointing, and I guess a case of more &#8220;politics.&#8221;
     
  43. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Great post!
     
  44. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    Lusso do you have a picture of this Diecast? You intriguing me ;)
    Some drawings also...:)
    I love both!
    Merci bien
     
  45. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Rookie
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    Thanks for your interesting post. Any chance to see pictures of your one-off 1:12th scale scratch built model ?? Thanks in advance.
     
  46. GIOTTO

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  47. Aardy

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    Thank you very much Giotto.

    OK, I remember now this incredible model ! Still a problem with the nose but very impressive work !! And scratch-built !! Crazy !

    There are also plenty of other jewels in this site !
     
  48. Lusso123

    Lusso123 Formula Junior
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    Yes, problem with the nose, but only because as I stated... that is the form I was commissioned to recreate.
     
  49. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Rookie
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    Anyway, fantastic model ! Really !!
     
  50. Lusso123

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    #148 Lusso123, Aug 31, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    *Not* a "diecast."

    Photo album of this model on my web site. Here is a direct link to my section: MB
    Ferrari Rossellini-1 .jpg
     
  51. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    Sorry to be hard-headed, but for me this is just a story til I see the pictures AND can verify that it really is 0402AM that is shown in the post-crash picture.

    So many mis-identified photos have been used as documentation over the years, as there are not too many individuals who can reliably identify cars in photos and I am not aware of any educated scolars doing disciplined historical research since the passing of Gerald Roush. Human mind is so easily led to believe things that are not there and it only gets worse when there is money in the equation.

    I share the case of 0447GT as an example: when sold by RM auctions a few years ago factory photos of 0435GT were used as reference (s/n on clearly chalked on front tyre!) and the visual differences were explained by making a ridiculous claim that the bodywork was modified at the factory. I cannot understand how mistakes of this grade get published and nobody seems to care. Cantelli ownership - AFAIK - is yet another guess, at least I have never seen or heard of any solid proof on that.

    1955 Ferrari 250 GT Europa Boano 'Low Roof' Alloy Coupe | Arizona 2015 | RM Sotheby's
     
  52. Aardy

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    Have also a look to the history of 0534/M given by RM for the "Ferrari - Leggenda e passione" the next week.

    They mixed the story with another Monza !! Look especially the pic of the 1956 Gran Premio Supercortemaggiore. This Scaglietti spyder body with high flanks and large side vents didn't yet exist in the sequence of "0534" but who cares ??
     

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