Dealer recommmedation - new pads

Gents, I was recommmeded to replace my front pads on the California. I politely declined and checked myself when I got the car back. I have attached photos below and appreciate your input. For me there’s plenty life left...

They also recommended to change the battery which I am questioning if required!
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What age/mileage is your car ?

Any modern Ferrari whose battery is more than a few years old risks electrical problems

 

It’s 2013 but not sure if original battery. I am questioning the replacement criteria as the battery condition was checked 6 weeks back for warranty renewal and all good. It’s a daily driver and no issues so far.

 

Looks like those pads are over 50% probably need changed soon but have some life left in em but id also be getting ready to change em though id probably do it myself. If they said your battery needed replaced it probably showed some sort of anomaly when checked. Might not be causing issues now but bad batteries cause all sorts of gremlins with F cars. But again Id certainly not pay someone to do that job either since im capable. I think the theory on those CCB is the rotors are extremly expensive and pads are relatively cheap (compared to rotor prices). I have also heard (though have no way to confirm this) that the pads wear faster after 50% and must be changed when they turn white. Hopefully someone chimes in on that since id like to know for sure myself.

 

Thanks for the input. I’ll keep an eye on the pads (but welcome to more feedback). I had the battery changed whilst the car was in for the service...not cheap but got a few warranty items done and the service was part of the service plan so no cost.

 

Yeah I forgot you said a 2013 and you still have factory scheduled maintenance that sure makes a difference.

 

Andrew, I just asked my dealer what the thickness of the new pads would be for my '13 Cali30. FYI, it's 10.5 mm for front pads, 9.0 mm for rear pads. I think yours look fine.

My SA also told me not to worry about replacing pads and says the brake pad sensors are "very sensitive" and "...they will advise you as soon as they need to be replaced..." and that "You will have time to drive the car for days, and book an appointment to replace them.".

FWIW, your pads look better than mine. I did track my car a bit last year but I'm not worrying. I have however, started to ask my dealer do a full inspection every year at the start of the driving season.

Battery warranties are usually 30 months. If you got 4 or more years from a battery in a modern Ferrari, it's probably a good idea to replace it.

 

I wondered how sensitive the sensors were. I didnt figure his sensors had gone off yet so I assumed he had a bit left to go. I certainly wouldnt change them until I had to with the price of CC pads.

 

Appreciate the feedback on this. I had a look at the pads again and reckon there's about 5/6mm left so should be good for now...
Out of interest, what is the ball park figure for the CC pads...

 

front pads are just north of $1300.00 for the front and $1300.00 for the rears. Interestingly the pads are currently not available at Ricambi, but are available from Algar. On a side note I hope as more and more cars start using CCB the components become cheaper because they are expensive for any make that uses them. I also seen where there is a brake conversion kit to convert the California over to standard brakes. I dont think i would do this given the performance and lifetime of the CCB system (without tracking).
(note edited to reflect prices for superseded part number)

 

Wow, only $750 on my 991TTS CCBs.

 

Andrew,
Have you noted any odd warning messages on the TFT display? If you have a battery conditioner (if not, I recommend getting one), does it take a long time to get back to a "green light" situation if you plug it in after a drive? Those are two typical signs you need a battery. Given, the price, I would just replace it if it's been in the car since new, these are a known issue with Ferrari, the OEM batteries are not stellar performers. If you have HELE (start/stop), you will need a special, larger (AGM) battery...T

P.S. Post some pics of your Cali!

Edit - this thread may have some useful info in it regarding your brakes

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/couple-of-issues-help-needed.560432/#post-145579307

if nothing else, some other rotors to stare at and compare with yours.

This thread deals with batteries and conditioners...

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/ferrari-california-battery-life.562438/

 

Here’s some photos. Thanks for the thread links. Loving the car and a change from my previous Aston and Porsche’s. Although I still have a 964 in the garage back in the UK which is a nice change going back to driving a manual!
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FYI, factory Cali30 front brake pad kits are about $850 and the rear pad kits about $625 in the UK. I don't know why they are so much more expensive in N. America than the UK except maybe because the UK is (still) in the EU so pays no duty for EU goods.

Canada just implemented its free trade deal with the EU in September so I can (and have) ordered Ferrari parts from the UK or EU and they are now DUTY-FREE.

 

Very nice! Of course, you know she's going to want one now... when she's old enough to drive.

 

Changing to iron or steel rotors would be a very bad idea.

The CCM brakes are not only there for looks and stopping power - they are extremely light and is in great part responsible for the fast acceleration of the Cali (low unsprung mass). The car will probably feel like a pig if you go to "standard" brakes. Not only will that be felt in acceleration but turn-in will also feel sluggish.

CCM brakes also leave no brake dust - remember all that cleaning you used to do on your wheels?

 

Good information to have, but couldnt/shouldnt those pads be available in north america for the lower price considering they have manufacturing plants in the USA now? I grant you it is an Italian company but figured since they make brake components in Michigan now.....

Like I said I sure wouldnt do it, but it is there. +1000 on the no cleaning rims.

 

Couple things to consider. A battery is a couple hundred bucks. Change it yourself. If the existing battery is 3 years or older, just replace it. They don’t get weak, they just fail. A tow job cost and risk to your car is not worth waiting to pay $200 a year later. I have several friends that waited as long as they could and ended up with a ruined evening, $300 flatbed tow, plus a new battery and a scraped front spoiler.

The CCM brake pads should be replaced before 50% remaining. The pads are attached with brass rivets instead of adhesive attachment. The rivets begin to show thru at 50%. These rivets can cause significant damage on the expensive CCM rotors. The other reason to change pads regardless of thickness, is visual inspection of the pad surface. I don’t know if the dealer suggested replacement based on thickness or appearance or both, but don’t assume you know what they look like without visually inspecting them. They are easy to remove and look at. Significant glazing, cracks, pits, or missing material may be found. You didn’t mention the miles driven or if any track time. A 2013 with relatively low miles and no track time may have good pad thickness but the pads are trash from glazing and lack of an occasional heat occurrence.

Aftermarket pads do exist and are about $1000 front and $600 rears but at the potential expense of more rotor wear. The OEM pads have come down in cost. Based on the visual appearance of your pad thickness, I would say it’s time to replace them.

Although I’m not a brake expert, I have gone thru many sets of pads on the Challenge car and know the ins and outs of the OEM design and pitfalls. Hope this info helps in your decision.

 

I appreciate your comments and acknowledge your experience on the track but your advice on replacing the pads before 50% wear is news to me so I've forwarded your message to my dealer for comment. They ran a successful 458 GT3 on the Pirelli series and I believe they support 6 other, customer (Challenge) cars and now operate their own new 488 GT3.

I'd also like to add that TRACKING a set of 50% worn CCM pads is VERY DIFFERENT from driving around on PUBLIC ROADS with 50% worn pads. WHY? Because depending on how hard and how long your track sessions are, you could wear out the 50% worn pads on the same track day.

OTOH, you will not wear through the same 50% worn pads if you are driving legal or at least reasonable speeds on public roads... for a very long time.

 

Tracking is definitely different than street however, the 50% wear rule still applies as well as visually inspecting the pads.

See this thread for more info and pics.

Need some help on pads - Pagid doesn't know...
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=9080&share_tid=446844&url=https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/index.php?threads/Need-some-help-on-pads---Pagid-doesn%27t-know%2E%2E%2E.446844/&share_type=t

Look at these pad pics at 6 mm thickness (60% remaining). You can already see the brass rivets showing. Do you want these brass rivets on your CCM rotors?

The wear sensors do not detect 50%. They are essentially worthless for what you really need to do as they only detect when you are basically down to the metal backing plate.

Totally up to you to decide if you want brass rivets on your CCM rotors. But from the looks of your pads, you are already there or nearly there. I still haven’t heard how many miles on your car and that would be helpful to know too.

Hope this other thread and pic helps. Good luck!

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Again, I appreciate your message but I have some problems with what you posted.

First of all - that is not a CCM brake pad for the California... or the 458. It may not even be an OE Ferrari pad. Actually the photo you posted looks like it's a PAGID racing brake pad. Looks a bit like their D62 which fits the F430...

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I know you own a 16M and an F430Challenge but you are on a Cali forum and you should inform readers you are only commenting from your F430 experience. Here are photos of the rear pads for the California. They are the same ones used on the 458.

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Here is a UK supplier price listing for new original Ferrari rear pads for the Cali... $622.69

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Here are photos and information on the Cali FRONT pads

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In case you're wondering why the ad uses 70003110 as part# while the photo shows 090001364, according to this Algar webpage, they are the same thing

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...and the UK price listing for 70001784 confirms 70003110 is the Cali front pad... $850

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Looking at the part numbers, the UK price, at least for the front pads, is the same SKU# as the eBay set of 4 pads for both sides so the price looks good. I don't believe you can buy a brake pad kit for only one side. That would be dangerous.

 

I think what teachdocs is saying is CCB pads have the pads attached via brass rivets and I recall that all CCB pads are attached in this manor. I didn't realize the things wore they at 60% though, I assumed somewhere close to 30% or 3 mm. I would assume that the manufacturers reccomendations would guarantee the 92000 mile life of the rotors but changing early may extend that. Again hopefully they start making tons more of these brakes making maintainance way cheaper.

 

Do you or Teachdocs actually own a California. I've driven mine for 5 years. The brakes on these cars are extremely durable when used on public roads.

I think Teachdocs tried to freak us out by showing us a photo of a severely worn and cracked PAGID race pad. That is also not a Brembo-Ferrari pad. He doesn't own a Cali or a 458, which both use similar GEN-2 Brembo CCM brakes. The CCM brakes in the older 16M, F430 are GEN-1. They are different.

I measured the backplate of the brake pad with an engineer's rule and it's 5 mm thick. By comparing that to apparent thickness of the actual CCM material of agaddini's they are both approx. 7 mm. They are not 50% worn. Here is what the Cali's owner's manual directions on brake wear:

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Are agaddini's brake pads anywhere close to 3 mm???? I provided the original thickness of the FR and RR pads. 3 mm is 30% pad thickness. So if you have an engineer's rule you can easily place its end flush against the brake rotor to check the % wear of the pad.

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At any rate, when you finally buy a Cali, if you want to minimize brake wear you should avoid COMFORT mode and just use SPORT or even CST-OFF if you're familiar using it safely and conditions allow. Both traction and stability controls employ the (rear) brakes but the intervention by these controls are reduced in SPORT and CST-OFF modes.

 

No, I havent purchased a California yet, though this information is excellent to know for a new owner or future owner. Didnt mean to ruffle any feathers, and would like to point out I personally like to know about the cars I buy. Now not owning a California, we do, or more accurately did rent one several times and have a significant amount of seat time in one though not 5 years. Points to point out are I never changed out of sport mode, since I nor my wife thought the ride was that bad, or bad enough to try comfort mode to begin with, but it is good to know with your experience that its made a significant difference in brake wear. Id assume that being in comfort mode would cause more wear on clutch components too, though i know its been said the wet clutch should last the life of the vehicle. Honestly im old enough now that its more about the drive instead of how fast can i get to X though some aggressive driving will still get the blood flowing. WHile the California gets a lot of flack for being Ferrari lite, I actually like the car, but most importantly my wife likes the car where she didnt like the F430. I would probably still buy a California if it were a Maserati albeit it would still need to be the same car. Thanks for the information, like i said i wouldnt have thought 50% wear would be right.

 

People sometimes encounter nasty shocks that stick with them and these experiences can colour their subsequent responses. It can and does happen to any of us.

I fully appreciate the horror of having CCM rotors ruined by scoring them with exposed pins/bolts on worn brake pads. The cost-benefits of CCM brakes are also perennial topics of conversations... arguments. My dealer insists the sensors will provide adequate warning and they are much more experienced servicing these cars so they know better than we do. It's fairly easy to keep an eye on the pads. I measured mine to have 5 mm backplates so when the pad material looks the same thickness, the pad is approx. 50% worn and you should start measuring the pads on a regular basis - I keep my engineer's rule handy for the purpose. One end of the rule is graduated right up to its edge. All I have to do is press the rule edge against the rotor and take a photo. As my Ferrari SA said, the sensors will give you several days' warning, UNDER NORMAL DRIVING CONDITIONS.

However, ALL BETS (AND WARRANTIES) ARE OFF IF YOU TRACK THESE CARS! And dealers will tell you that immediately. You can definitely wear through the sensors and possibly damage the rotors if you are running multiple long hot laps. CCM pads (and rotors) will wear out pretty quickly if you do a lot of aggressive track driving... even worse if you track in COMFORT mode. Track cars are inspected before and after track events. Brake pads are often serviced before (and after) track events. When tracking, the best thing to do is to pick a slow day at the track, switch the Manettino to CST-OFF, drive the track carefully until you learn the track and are comfortable before trying to go 10/10 for your best laps with CST-OFF. I often drive CST-OFF on country roads just to get used to its behaviour but when I do that I have to pay absolutely 100% attention and not expect the car or Ferrari to save me if I start sliding or experience sudden oversteer.

The Cali is a GT so it is designed to let you drive in all day, day after day, for very long distances without fatigue, and also take all your luggage with you. You cannot do that in a mid-engine F430, 458/488,...etc. It's mainly to do with the layout and suspension compliance, which aside from better comfort, also provides better traction on iffy road surfaces, making the car actually faster than cars with stiffer suspensions. So while the Cali is a bit "liter" in price (in line with its market) it is not actually "liter" in function but simply designed better for a different function and a different breadth of clientele. The Cali30 will actually accelerate as fast as a 458, up to about 40 mph and in its current configuration, I'm pretty sure my car is actually faster (and sounds better) than a standard 458, up to 40 mph and perhaps beyond. Its 60-0 braking has also been tested as better than the 458's. It's essentially better suited for urban and long range driving than the 458.

I don't think COMFORT mode is detrimental to DCT clutches. SPORT mode actually speeds up gear changes so one could argue that it is more risky for the DCT clutches but I have yet to read about DCT clutch failures. COMFORT mode makes the car more docile and more quiet, when you are cruising for many miles on a highway, where the car is pointed straight almost the whole way. However, if you are like me, and prefer the back roads whenever possible on long trips; you will encounter many more corners and changes to road surfaces, and hence SPORT mode will let you handle the car with more poise. While the car is a lot of fun to drive at urban speeds, when my Cali30 HS hits higher speeds, its dynamic handling characteristic "electrifies"; its responses and behaviour sharpen up dramatically. It becomes a completely different and very enjoyable car to drive fast. This is what you pay for... the Ferrari software programming control over its engine, transmission and suspension.

So when you buy a Ferrari, aside from buying the styling, brand and dealership experiences, you are buying the Ferrari interiors, the ECU software programming, the engine, suspension and transmission. While some people who are ignorant of Pininfarina designs mistaken the Cali as a Maserati product, when you understand my last statement, you'll see everything is substantially different. And while Maseratis do use an engine from the same F-136 Ferrari V8 family that powers the 430, 458 and the Cali, the Maserati engines use cross-plane crankshafts while the Ferraris use flat-plane crankshafts, making the cars completely different in character.