Yet more problems.. Sudden power drop with CEL + beep?

Hello again. I swear this car is having a laugh at me. As if a pandemic wasn't enough to stop me driving it..

Was tootling around getting some groceries when after about 15 minutes:

2nd gear on slip road.. Putting foot down

- car just completely refuses to go faster
- loud beeps
- CEL
- very rough running with pops from exhaust and general disgruntlement

Car doesn't die completely though and allows me to trundle again - CEL immediately goes away. However, whenever I am asking for throttle it will repeat process again

Plugged in an X431 (best I have currently) and only absent codes, no present codes

Background

- new throttle position sensor put in 6 months ago
- car does this loud hissing from left side on throttle (most seem to think this is normal either from scoop or butterfly valves?)
- last time I filled her full she stank of petrol from left side again (this smell subsided.. Overfilled somehow?)

I have driven the car hard forever with the hiss and a couple of times with petrol smell so not necessarily connecting them to this issue

Any ideas? Spark issue? Coil packs? Ignition? Fueling?

The fact it is only really happening when I'm asking for throttle might be a clue? I could trundle at 50mph on mway without issue

Not that technical so if anyone could chime in. And yes, it needs SD2 but a little hard at present..

Thanks

 

I would start with the basics if you haven't already. Reset the ecu (battery off for ten min) then do a relearn and check the state of the battery itself if it's a few years old or not on constant charge.

 

OK plan to try that tomorrow.

Re the battery, as a quick side thing... Have lots of debates with people about them. I'm inclined to think that as long as it starts the car, and your alternator is healthy you needn't particularly worry about it so much?

My car lives outside so I CTEK it about once a week when it's not driven to bring it back to full health. Not ideal but generally I drive about twice a week so always feel I'm on top of battery health?

 

Power off is not the basics. Though commonly shared it is a terrible idea when diagnosing an issue; it is like having the answer on the blackboard and suggesting that they start by erasing the blackboard. Did you read both ECUs? If the light went out they wouldn't show as currently active but what codes did you find?

 

For me - safety comes first. If I smelt fuel and also had hissing sounds, I would be wanting to find the source of the problem before driving it too much. I know you have had this hissing sound since you bought it but.... you need to take a fuel smell very seriously. Please be careful in diagnosing yourself. Fuel pumps are under the removable panels. They crack and leak and the smell is raw petrol - have a sniff around. This is the priority and maybe the cel is your Italian beauty trying to save itself and you from a fire [emoji2]

Mine does not make any hissing sounds if that helps.. nor did my last 360.

From memory you are up north way so a bit far for me to have a listen/compare (and covid).




Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

Guaranteed that a leaking fuel pump will throw a CEL. Likely as an preoperative system error. It could also explain the power loss because you starve the motor for fuel.

 

Hey Skid!

Um yes that thought did cross my mind too

I am still pretty new to this so I take most things as gospel

OK the absent codes are

P1773 clutch beyond PIS

- clutch is brand new. I also have been adjusting PIS quite a bit so suspect this is from then? Could be wrong of course but trans wise my head says car is OK. It moves off well, no f1 lights, and this issue occurred in gear when adding throttle.

P0600 CAN error code

P1760 Brake switch error (kinda knew about this already have a new switch ready to go in)

 

Hey J

Appreciate the offer!

And yes I hear you re the risk. I have been so starved of any fun from my car that I was just desperate to get out there. I have seen a guy on YouTube "Fezza" talk about the petrol smell and he said his guys couldn't find the issue

I did attempt to have a look at the fuel pump. The best I could do was to put a camera underneath the panel as one of the hex bolts has worn and it won't shift. I am not your typical DIYer and don't even have a dremel to cut into the bolt to remove it (I tend to rely on my mechanic but he's older and obviously keeping safe at home)

Anyway, I couldn't *see* a leak but sure I assume something isn't right under there

So OK, a bad fuel pump would throw up a sudden CEL when applying throttle but WOULDN'T give me a fault code (on an X431)?

I have read that bad coil packs don't give a code and you have to check the manifold pipes for heat until you find a cold one? Is that accurate?

Have to admit the fact the car isn't right is somewhat of a godsend. The temptation to drive it on empty roads was sending me sideways

 

I think your best bet is to source the location of fuel smell first. Rich from the exhaust (unburnt) or fresh from a leak. You mention exhaust popping... if from the fuel pumps it could be a hairline crack or leak. The smell is strong so it can be a tiny leak. Remember fuel might only show leak when under pressure... see this post from Delaney In 2014:


[A month or so ago I posted a query about a CEL that produced no codes. The SD2 simply said 'nothing stored', although when I hit the 'erase' function...the CEL went away. It returned ~ every 50 miles, then got more frequent ~ 20 miles.

Then I started to smell the gas fumes and ended up changing out the drivers side fuel pump (360 Spider 2003) that had gas pooling in the center. The CEL has never returned.

Question: If the two are connected..gas fumes & CEL...how? ]

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/143355598


Sound familiar?
Good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

Haha yes very familiar! Thanks for that

Added to that I think I previously didn't have THIS issue because I was probably running off the good pump in the other tank? Now at about 50% petrol left I'm probably running off the bad one? Weird thing is that I had fuel pressure checks not so long ago

Follow the petrol smell for now I guess!

 

I have a gated so my experience may not apply...

I had this code a while back, bought a switch and left it in the drawer awaiting other jobs. About two weeks later, the accelerator stopped working. I got a couple of other misleading and irrelevant codes along with the brake code. I asked my buddy, a Ferrari master tech, what the codes meant and he asked one question: Did you change the brake switch yet?

The brake switch can cause all sorts of mischief when it malfunctions. There are two switches (in mine anyway) inside that little box and if they don't agree, you get a code. At some point, the car gives up on the human and stops obeying accelerator commands. Just like you're seeing.

So my advice, change the switch. You'll probably find the car behaves again. One note of caution. Don't play with the plunger. To install, push the brake pedal down with one hand and install the switch with the other. When you release the brake pedal, the ratcheting action of the switch will adjust it to the perfect length. If you screw around with the plunger before you install the switch, you may not have enough play in the switch for proper adjustment and the switch won't work.

Warning: DO NOT drive the car until you solve the fuel smell problem. As others have noted, unless you want to be the star of someone's facebook video showing your car burning down to the wheels, solve that before even starting the car again.

 

Appreciate that, Memphis

 

Quick update on this one

Managed to get panel off. No smell. No leaks. No cracks in pump. We even manually stuck some petrol in via a can and couldn't see anything that wasn't right. No smell after doing this.

However.. I did notice something..

The drain pipe that I believe takes (excess?) petrol from the petrol filler doesn't actually exit through the hole in the undertray. The pipe is folded inside the tray as though someone forgot to put it back in the right place.

It could also be a pipe for something that isn't petrol but not sure

Read about the petrol pipe via Aldous here:

https://aldousvoice.com/2014/04/08/ferrari-f430-rear-undertray/

Not sure if this sheds light on anything but it's something that needs adjusting at some point. For time being I'll just fill the tank to halfway.

Aaaanyway. I changed the brake switch. My mechanic suggested that the plunger on the old brake switch looked pretty healthy and may have just needed adjusting on the thread? (mine is the type where you don't have to push the brake pedal. It adjusts via spinning on a thread? I think this is the early type one, it's black with a white plunger)

I just wonder whether a lot of these get changed when they may just need adjustment? Seems like a pretty basic device to go wrong so often?

Lastly, because I'm a clumsy SOB I managed to drop the engine bay window support C clip thing into the frigging engine bay. People's opinions on this one? Do I search endlessly for it or forget about it? Sounded like it "fell" twice so probably now resting neatly against the undertray

 

The pump leaks under pressure more than anything. There are some photos on here somewhere but id you didn't check with ignition on and system primed you may have missed it.

Just drop the tray and grab the clip. Not that hard.

A fuel overflow pipe drains if you overflow at the top, not from the neck under the filler cap. It would only smell of fuel if you overflowed the top, not because you filled 1/2 or full.

 

Sorry meant to say we checked with engine running and me revving it a little

Definitely a strange one. Something happened at that refill. I hear the vapour scavenger thing between tanks can cause issues?

Generally I never fill the car full as I prefer a lighter car. I filled it full pre-lockdown for obvious reasons.

Im guessing if I had a serious problem the smell wouldn't just decide to vanish, right? Obviously I'll keep an eye on it but at this point I doubt my power loss is the fuel pump

Having spoken to someone that works on these cars a lot, they suspect dodgy coil pack(s). I wouldn't be surprised if they are the original 20yo coils. He suggested they may have shorted something giving me the P0600 CAN line error but that could easily be my (other) crap OBD reader not being accepted by the car

Looks like I'll be attacking the undertray tomorrow

 

So I'm just doing some basic fact checking with this one..

Does anyone know for certain if a "clutch beyond PIS" situation can give a CEL? I DEFINITELY had the beeps associated with clutch overheat (although I was driving like a granny up to that point and was merely asking for a bit more throttle at the time). I do not know if there was an F1 light but I am fairly sure there wasn't.

I was not chucked into neutral and there is zero clutch smell

Just wanting to rule out even more trans issues here?

Has anyone else experienced beeping AND CEL?

 

Quick update.. Plan on changing 7 of the 8 coil packs as have found they are the original 20yo ones. If anything else it can be crossed off the list!

Hoping my ecu(s) isn't toast. Hoping even more I don't have yet more trans issues.

In hindsight the issue to me feels a lot like an ecu failsafe. I know the trans can kick you out of gear into N (that didn't happen with me) but this felt like a partial / full engine shutdown before it spluttered into life again.

Hoping that what it is is tired coil packs in turn possibly spazzing my ecu or activating fail safe

Will fit coils, delete codes and see what codes turn up next time

Will report back when at some point in time we can drive our cars in anger again

 

Silly thing to ask but have you checked the earth (ground) connections for all the boxes involved? There are a couple. Copper to aluminum is a notorious problem for galvanic corrosion. Resetting grounds in a low voltage (aka 12v) system can eliminate many gremlins.

Edit: Earth locations from the wiring diagram manual:
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Hi Memphis

That's on the list. I take it all the relevant grounds are within fairly easy inspection / under the engine side panels?

If someone could list their exact locations that would be super useful!

 

I think Trev posted a pic with all of the ground points circled in red. It was last posted in the past couple of months so it shouldn't be too hard to find. Grounds are a know issue with the 360.

 

Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

So my problem reappeared after 5 minutes. Guess it wasn't the coil packs! also it doesn't appear to be the brake switch (also changed), but I'll see what codes I've got tomorrow

The problem is VERY spasmodic. It goes

- misfire (sometimes with backfire) / a very "coughing" sudden type of misfire (no corona jokes plz)
- CEL / beep, sometimes two on the trot
- recovers (no CEL)

and then it may just repeat. It does seem to be somewhat throttle dependent, although it can happen just randomly with average throttle, or when I'm pushing more. I am somewhat glad it happens quickly and isn't one of those does it after an hour faults..

So my current list of possibles is thus:

- clogged injectors

- clogged throttle body(ies)

- CAN line fault / wiring issue / ground issue

(although I have had a look at some of the grounds and there's literally no signs of anything bad in the car. It's a clean car always has been) - I think to inspect every ground may well need a ramp or at least someone that just knows how to find them effectively

- bad ECU(s)

- some kind of (low) voltage issue (I have bought a new higher power battery anyway as existing battery is a bit under spec)

- problematic throttle position sensor (it was recently changed but maybe the car is eating throttle sensors for some reason)

- fueling issue

- clutch / PIS issue (although I guess this type of thing would commonly tend to throw it into neutral)

- a clutch sensor issue (again I think symptoms would be different and I'd get F1 lights not CEL)

- something dumb like the engine bay lid not closing properly (is this even a thing?)

Thoughts?

 

Further update:

Went out for a better test today

- We had a misfire at idle from cold

- then we had coughing misfire with CEL regularly from the off, with some throttle, sometimes totally randomly

- one thing we really noticed this time was the pops from the exhaust on overrun. When you give it some the overfueling through the cats is very apparent - this would often be accompanied by a CEL and beep (I can't remember if this was *always*)

(it should be noted I have sport cats on this car)

Anyway the "absent" codes (absent because they come and go?) that keep coming back after each clearing are thus:


RH-B AND LH-B CAN LINE ERROR ( P0600 )
● CAN line communication error between the RH ECU and the LH ECU
ERROR TYPE
Communication Error
VERIFICATIONS
Wiring and system intactness check.


BRAKE ERROR (DETACHED WIRE/BRAKE_STUCK/BRAKE_CAN_ERROR) ( P1760 )
● Wire for brake pedal pressed signal cut-out or in short circuit
ERROR TYPE
Error edited on CAN line, compared to physical input, wire for brake pedal pressed
signal cut-out or in short circuit
VERIFICATIONS
Wiring / component intactness check


Question is.. Can these codes cause the symptoms I'm having? Can CAN issues of any kind cause rich fueling / pops and bangs on overrun?

I *guess* the cats may just be doing this as a by-product of them being sport cats but the amount of pops is definitely a "new" thing to me... (gotta say I kinda love it! )

All thoughts and ideas and expertise welcome!

 

Do you have stock headers and are they the type with precats?

 

Hey Memph

Stock UK headers with no precats