Carbon fiber quality...

If you tap it and it rings, its good stuff. Without gell/cc, the part gets very sensitive to prolonged light from what I am lead to believe...

For automotive applications, I worry how easily it will shatter and shard upon impact. I do not want to be in a car that is in a collision and need to have thousands of fragments taken out me because I wanted to have a CF interior installed...

 

Yea, I don't know how many of you have worked with carbon, but we work with it a LOT for fsae, as most of the car is carbon, and the worst thing is carbo splinters! We use well over a hundred yards of 2x2 carbon for each car, and then we have composite ceramic carbide parts which cost more to produce then it is to ship our entire team to europe for a week...with our race car!

Carbon is great, but you have to be careful when fabricating with it, machining it, etc. Most of the processes used while making high quality carbon parts are pretty toxic to us humans, so take precautions, wear good masks and work in a ventialting environment. You think bondo dust is bad for you...

Here's a picture of our 2004 car, body is all carbon, weighs basically nothing, and looks fantastic! We made the bucks by hand, then laid up a female mold, and used vacuum assisted resin transfer, worked pretty well.

http://www.formularpi.com/carpictures/2004/13.jpg

Some nice little carbon "3d" work we do, veyr easy to do, and it makes a big difference:

http://www.formularpi.com/carpictures/2004/7.jpg

And of course the other compsite components:

http://www.formularpi.com/carpictures/2004/8.jpg

The Hybrid Monocoque consists chromoly base spaceframe with shaped carbon honeycomb aerospace panels: And of course the undertray, rad shroud, etc is all carbon.
http://www.formularpi.com/carpictures/2004/4.jpg

 

mechanka,

I am very impressed with the image of the chopper made from carbon fibre. Was this that the finish of the panel or was it painted? If you can dig one up, I would very much appreciate a photo of the whole bike with this finish.

I myself am not a bike man (although I appreciate the aesthetics), but my father is. He is big into choppers right now (as is everyone else ) He had one finished and shipped to him by a customs company in Las Vegas earlier this year. If I showed him a bike with all carbon fibre bodywork I am sure he would spring for it and have one made

PS, here is a photo of his bike which I took a few months ago.

http://www.deepabyss.com/images/chopper_01.jpg

 

What do you think it would take to do the whole rear deck lid of a 328 GTS? It think it would look great, and that piece is rather heavy so it should save a lot of weight. Perhaps it would not be stiff enough and I don't know how it would take the heat and UV over time. But it would sure look cool.

 

It has been done, costs around 3500 if I recall..

 

Thank you. Thank you very much...

 

McFlarbon, you rascal!

 

I am not really in New Orleans (where my parents live) for much of the year any longer, but whenever I am and see his bike in the garage I am stunned! I always seem to forget how high quality and perfect every little aspect of the thing is...simply amazing how well the customs are put together You cannot even tell where the welds on the bike are, it looks as if it were formed from a single block of metal! Truthfully in asking about the carbon fibre I was unaware that you could do anything else besides the fenders and tank. What other parts of the bike could feasibly be constructed out of carbon fibre? You have really sparked my interest with this. Could you produce chassis or suspension parts? I am not sure weight reduction matters much on these things...they are usually rediculously overpowered anyhow

Another thing, (completely random idea I was thinking about the other day) is to make a carbon fibre face for the trendy cellphones that people have with removable (swappable) faces. I always thought it would be cool to have a carbon fibre phone I do not think production cost could be justified using your super expensive process (prepregs and dry process), but I'm sure some lower grade company will come along and produce something similar to what I'm thinking of.

 

Now THAT'S an awesome idea... i don't have a 'swappable faces' cell phone, but an ENTIRELY carbon fiber cell phone would be awesome... i bet there would be a somewhat noticeable difference in weight, too...

When i was at Road Atlanta in May, they had a table constructed completely from carbon fiber in the complimentary VIP whatever you call is area; someone said it cost 10 grand... i'm not sure if that's true or not, but that's STEEP... i would love to have some cool carbon fiber things but at prices like that, i think i'll have to pass...

 

I have a Corrado that I've spent about 10 years building up and racing, it's got quite a bit of high quality CF component technology in it now - and also some cheesy cheap CF stuff just for interior looks.

My $0.02 is that if you are using the CF for anything on the exterior of the car that will be exposed to the elements, not to mention structural in nature, it needs to be top quality CF. Anything interior, or just got pure aesthetic appeal, that can be done in "wrapped" CF or simple molded CF.

I've got a true CF hood (a nice 3-lb compressed one, not a fiberglass one with a CF layer glossed over it), rear spoiler, and front fenders. I plan to replace the entire rear hatch with CF as well. And just for good measure, my mirror housings are CF.

Inside the car I have the shifter surround console done in high quality CF, and then lots of "wrapped" CF parts just as trim : door cubbies, inner mirror trim triangles, door pull covers, glovebox door, gauge surround trim, speaker panels, and knee bar covers. I *definitely* did not want compressed CF over the knee bars, in the case I do get in a front end collision - I don't want my knees ramming into something as tough as true CF! At least the wrapped CF's clearcoat will crack and give way.

I just bought an R32 as my new daily driver, so I'll have to wait a little while longer before I begin modding a Ferrari.
But since my Ferrari plans are to start with a body-damaged 308 series to fix up, replacing some body panels with CF is a natural part of the progression.

 

Wow!!!! What a beautiful machine. A work of art!

 

What about baking, or autoclave? to get a matted finish?

When I was at Stillen, I used to make carbon fiber business cards formyself, cost about a buck a piece to make so i did not give many out.

 

mechanka,

To answer your question, I personally would equate quality with how it looks - glossiness, smoothness, and how shiny it is. I know that's different than real quality from a structural standpoint, but let's face it - people are buying CF parts for the look, and the look is the most important thing in the appearance market. My .02 anyway.

Anka, do you work with other cosmetic types of carbon fiber material? For example, take a look here:

http://www.robotcombat.com/marketplace_carbonfiber.html

They lay CF over wood cores to make sheets. They have colored CF panels, and check out the silver and gold colored CF sheets.

The reason I ask is because my company manufactures products for the motorcycle industry. Our core business is electronics and appearance parts. We often need housings for products made, and in the bike industry (as you know) appearance is everything. I'd be interested in what sort of things you can make, what's involved in getting parts made, and what sort of up front and ongoing prices we'd be looking at. In general, we'll design an enclosure/housing in CAD (usually Inventor) or we'll have an existing part we need to replicate, and I'm guessing in CF that requires a mold or template, and that has a cost, then there would be a per-part cost of molding the parts.

Anyways, I'd be interested in learning a little bit more... but in regards to your question, 99% of CF purchases in the cycle industry are cosmetic, and from my experience, price and looks are king.

 

Obvious signs of compression are not good. The fibers should be straight to be strong. CF is only good in tension, it will do horribly in compression, generally. In most cases CF is used for reasons of beuty. Regular fiberlass is more foregiving, generally stronger (more impact tolerant) and better for street/race use and weighs virtually the same and CF and is significantly cheaper than CF.

Pre-pregs are not better than dry fiber mixed with resin when done in the correct ratio. Pre-preg must be stored correctly or the properties can be damaged. Epoxy resin is stronger than poly but may be too brittle for most applications.

However, CF it is beutiful when done right. For decorative parts, CF is the way to go. For air dams, etc, use regular glass and paint it or use CF is beuty is the primary goal.

 

Lots of incorrect information here.

Signs of crimping is bad, but compression is OK. CF is excellent in compression as well as tension. Kevlar has poor compression characteristics.

Fiberglass is NOT stronger than CF. It is more impact resistant. Two different mechanical properties. The benefit of CF is that it is stronger and stiffer than 'glass so one can use less of it. Thus the weight savings over a fiberglass part of equal strength and/or stiffness.

The benefit of pre-pregs is that the resin/fiber ratio is already correct and very accurate. Also the resin is distributed evenly throughout the fabric. Wet-pregging can give good results, but simple hand lay-up of wetted out fabric gives imperfect results. In critical applications, wet hand lay-up is not acceptable.

Second, epoxy resin is, in fact, less brittle than poly. It has better elongation characteristics which is why it is recommended for use with carbon fiber. Using polyester resin for a structural CF part is simply wrong. Vinylester resin is OK, but epoxy is best.

CF in most street applications is simply for cosmetics. In this case the quality of the layup workmanship - fabric tailoring, fiber neatness, dimensional consistency - is more important than the mechanical properties.

 

Wow, that's awesome...! Where can i go to get stuff made out of CARBON fiber that i won't have to throw away my whole check for...?

 

Well, I was always stealing office supplies We would get sections in about the size of cards for QC, and we did not need them so I would take the stuff that was too small to be used anyplace else. I don't think I ever had enough to make a patchwork bed (hat a project that will be), although it may be too light, during an earthquake (we are long overdue, should have one anyday now) or routine speed trials of the g/f, that we would end up moving the bed 10-20ft.