Garage Queens

There is no reason, if a car is started and ran a few miles a month, has fluid changes etc, that's good enough. Of course there are those that'll disagree, but I would never buy a high mileage car, I don't care how well it's been maintained. Used is used. Give me a new old car ever time just have full service before taking delivery, and you make the history.

 

Cars are meant to be driven---unless it's an investment(ENZO)--f the miles drive and enjoy!!! Had mine for almost a month now and put 650 miles on it.

 

Machines work better when used.

They did NOT design your car to sit still ... and hence garage queens often give more trouble.

Pete

 

There is NO such thing as a new old car ... just an old car. Many things age even though the car is not being used, rubber for example.

BTW: Engine wear is the most pronounced on 'start-up' ...

Pete

 

I think it depends on what your intentions are with the car.. If you plan on selling it down the road for profit or otherwise, or if you plan on keeping it for good. If you plan on keeping it for good, then drive it till the wheels fall off (pleasure of driving a beautiful car and owning one)....
People are right however, when they say that these cars are meant to be driven and not stuffed in a garage. Servicing the car is a key element even if it does sit around.

 

Are you serious? I thought you were considering your first purchase - a 348 or a TR, right? You can't honestly say that you believe those are the servicwe requirements... Please.

 

Can't drive.

Belt failures are 75% caused by lack of use of the car.

Many fires are caused again by lack of use of the car and thus rubber fuel lines have gone hard and brittle ... equals leak and fire.

I suggest you buy a Toyota ... although on my Toyota I will have to replace the front brake hoses, cause guess what? ... they have split and are obviously old and brittle. Garage queen it is NOT ... but people simply forget rubber ages, whether you use the car or NOT, and in MOST cases rubber ages worse if not warmed up by use frequently.

Pete

 

jvbjr,
I believe in driving my Fcars and have done so. However, the bias here against garage queens is overblown, I believe. Of the 6 used Ferraris I have owned, I have actually had fewer problems with the 2 that would be called garage queens. Example #1. A 94 348 I bought in 1998 with 1500 miles. I drove it for 3 years, covering 15K miles. No problems at all (including clutch). Example #2. My current 89 328 which I bought in Nov, 2001 with 7300 miles, the last 1000 were in the prior 5 years. It now has 19K, no problems, runs like a champ. Our local Fcar dealership sales manager likes to talk about how it is better to have cars that are driven, but his latest purchase for himself--an '86 328 with less than 10K on the meter. My biggest problems came fron cars with moderate miles, but which were not driven much in recent years. Unfortunately, this applies to a lot of Ferraris. People drive them a lot for a while, then more or less stop. Years later, they unload them.

Dave

 

I prefer F-cars that have been driven on a regular basis. Many of the service bulletins have been performed on cars that have more miles. There are many pluses to getting a car with some miles on it.
Here is an idea. Buy another 911. I don't recommend you trying to buy a Ferrari as you are already complaining about it.

 

But what is the use of such a car then ? is it to tell people what a cool car you have in the garage ? I average more than that on my Dino and again more than that on my motorcycle every month and I work from home so my commute is about 10ft...maybe 15ft. So all my miles are pleasure miles, I get in my car or on my bike and just go for a drive and enjoy the car and the wonderful sounds of that motor.

There is very little better to relieve stress than firing up a Dino, that awesome V6 makes such delicious sounds that it makes all the days problems melt away as you take it for a spirited spin. Why own a car if you are not going to drive it ?

I don't think that there is a obsession against garage queens as you asked, I think its just that some of us don't understand how someone can have such a incredibly awesome car in the garage and NOT drive it, why own it then ? If you say investment, geez, there are far better ones out there.

Oh and don't tell me that its ok to drive my car so much because its a cheap FIAT, it costs the same to drive my Dino as a real Dino. Only the entry price is less, I get my motor parts at the same dealers a real Dino owner gets his and they don't give me a discount because its a FIAT. (sorry, had to add that in because I have been told that once)

 

21,000 miles and same clutch going strong

9 years=same belt (although I'm getting ready to change it)

14 years=same cats=no fires

If you're worried about maintenance costs, you should either learn how to work on them properly yourself, or save ahead for these costs. Ferrari's aren't cheap. If you take care of them and maintain them mechanically, like any car, they will treat you right.

If you want reliability, get a Toyota.

 

From my 20 years of Ferrari ownership and seeing many garage queens during that time, there tends to be three type of garage queen owners: 1) the ones who buy a Ferrari they can't really afford so they don't drive it because it will break them if it needs service or repairs; 2) the ones who buy a Ferrari erroneously thinking that a used serial production Ferraris can be a good investment and that miles driven will decrease their return; and 3) the ones who have so many other things going on in life that it is a struggle to find the time to drive the Ferrari. Either way, both the owner and car suffer from not being taken out of the garage for a spirited run as often as possible.

 

Enzos are meant to be driven too. Higher dollar value but they're still just cars.

 

biggest problem with cars unused, is likely to be corrosion or hardening of oil seals,

when an engine is not used,,, the static load from engine parts will rest solely on one part of an oil seal etc,, and without anything moving (can) become hardened in one area, leading to premature oil leaks, if no oil is contact, seal can become brittle, again leading to early failure

engines which are started and never reach working temperature will create condensation in the combustion part of the engine and in the exhaust all which (may) lead to corrosion.

brakes which are not used, (may) become sticky or seized,

unchanged oil,,, and in particular with fully synthetic is hydroglyscopic (will absorb water),,,, typically porsche with lots of oil, can accumulate up to 1 pint of water (which is speperated) in the front oil tank over a year of use,(straight from porsche technical management) (engine being used) - hence even with low mileage cars it is important to change the oil..same goes for other fluids, in brakes and clutch assemblies,,, changing fluids will reduce water in system.

bearings(wheel) etc, can suffer from sitting in one position and lead to premature failure.

tyres - more common,, develop flat spots if not rotated

in short,, if your car is sitting in the garage for months on end, unused,, not good,,, best if they are taken out once a month,, dry day, get them up to temperature, will keep everything used and moving and reduce the possibility of damage/early failure due to lack of use,,,,,


just my rumblings,,


cheers
scott..

ps,, dont put wet cars in garages,, or after they have been washed, always better to give them a spin on dry roads, to remove any areas of trapped water and to dry brake pads/disks out,,,,,,,

 

I'd consider bearing failure perhaps the most costly. Bearings in theory have infinite contact stresses, this is because the load is finite but the contact patch is infinitesimly small. What happens in practice, is the surface of the roller or ball and the bearing race surface actually deflect so that the contact patch widens and reduces force per square inch - Its still probably 20,000 lb/square inch. If a bearing sits inone place the metal actually deforms perminently and starts stress hardening and forming brittle crystals of metal. These crystals soon break away when the equipment is operated and form pits in the metal surface. Once that happens its like potholes in the road in the middle of winter they get worse and worse until the bearing breaks.

I bought a '97 355 with 6200 miles 3 years ago, that sat for long periods of time without being operated. Since then I've replaced Cam belt tensioners, water pumps, even the bearings in the throttle linkage had failed. While the car was cosmetically perfect, I probably been better off buying a car that had been driven regularly and had all the updates and had a fresh paint job on the nose. Lets face it - 355s are never going to be collector items - there are too many of them. Thats why I blinged my transaxle cover!

 

I don't understand it either Joe. Yes, one must consider long term sitting does not compare to giving life to the engine, thus performance. However, its YOUR MONEY! Do what you want with it. What I despise is a fourteen year old quoting Enzo on something he never said, " it was meant to be driven." Really? The 14 year old knows about the sacrifice to purchase, responsibilty in ownership and etiqute on the road? I think its safe to state that the same garage queen bashers have quotes that they see no problem in driving a capable car 100+ mph on the highway 24/7 no matter the conditions. Uhh ok, Im glad that not only do they know how people should act with what they purchase for themself but that these 14 year olds are also using their ESP to drive around actions the school busses and soccer moms sharing the road with them do.

I loved ownership because of the way it looked, the neat feeling of seeing that symbol and where its origins came from, and of course performance. However, I would cringe at the thought of stone chips or pot holes on a daily drive or take away the smile when you drive it out on the traditional sunny weekend drive. Its my money and something I cherish, why would I damage it by daily use or over abuse the rare feeling by pounding away miles just because of other people's perceptions on how I should conduct myself with my own goods?

There is no set rule to these cars. The only thing set it stone IMO, is that in numerous Forza articles ( which I think were written by John Edgar and Luigi Chinetti Jr, ) the only true quote to the road cars was that Enzo "sold them to suckers to fund his racing team." Hearing from those sources has a little more credit than the avid 30 something year old fan who isnt a owner but feels free taking shots at a 355 owner that he "doesn't deserve his car" cause the Ferrari owner babies it.

I think its basic thought and people should respect that whatever one does with what they earned on their own is their own business.

RocketBoy

 

I'm no expert, but have owned about 40+ collectable cars over the past 40 years.

I dont' think anyone here is wrong or right. It just depends on the car, and how you treat it and take of it.

When I bought my 360 in Feb this year, I was looking for a properly maintained car with reasonably low mileage. I wanted to avoid the 1500 miles per year car, for many of the reasons as stated above by other posters.

And, needless to say, I didn't want a high mileage car.

So, with color and options an equally important factor, I looked for a low mileage car, which I deem as about 5k per year, carefully driven, with good maintaince records. It took 18 months to find the right one, but, so far, it's paid off very well. Great car, zero problems, runs perfectly.

There's no guraantees goind forward, but what I'm trying to say, the "middle of the road" mileage seems to be the best option to me.

However, middle of the road for a F car is about 3-6 per year, not 15k per year, which think is more like the national average. Fcars are not average.

 

As well as dried out leaking seals, and dried out rubber hoses, water and impurities in the oil form an acidic solution which speeds up corrosion including pitting to bearings. The water evaporates when the engine is given a proper run and maintains operating temperature for long enough. Just starting the engine and letting it idle till it warms up every week is not enough. A regular run of at least half an hour is ideal.

Allanb888

 

This is one of the reasons I bought a 308 that needed some TLC. No matter how many or how little miles one of these cars has, its a 30 year old car. Also, no matter who owned it last, 3 decades is a long time to lose history, run the car out of oil, start it up cold and race the engine, start it up without oil after an oil change, and I could go on and on. But the truth of it all is mileage does matter. Yes, use it or lose it matters too, but all things being equal, I would take the lower milage car in simular condition. But I have always gravitated towards the beater project cars, always wanting something to work on.

If I were going out to look at one of these cars again, even after knowing the expense of parts to do a rebuild, I would still look for one needing help. I figure if I rebuild the engine, I can then trust the car without question. But seriously, I have worked on cars with a gazillion miles, and everything ends up worn out. I don't care if Rolls Royce built it, it will wear out. And as to lack of use, much of that depends on the enviroment its kept in. But at the least, a good run every few months should be enough to keep it limber. I mean, how much is anyone ever going to drive a truely historic car, aircraft, steam train? Why would an exotic car be any different?

 

Agree.

Pete

 

Interesting post. A sales manager at one of the Ferrari dealerships offered to sell me his 328 several months back, and it was also in the low teens for mileage. (Wrong color, though.)

My sports cars have usually been lower mileage, borderline garage queens because (1) they were secondary cars and (2) I saved them for the pleasure drives, not the Home Depot/dry cleaning/grocery runs where the main challenges are speed bumps, curbs, shopping carts and moms backing up in Ford Excursions. I sold my '96 911 cab with 11,000 miles. My '98 SLK (fun for a while) in 2004 with 7800 miles. Both sold immediately, for strong$. And I didn't feel cheated at all, because whenever I felt the urge to drive them, I drove them. Neither one gave me any real problems.

I'm certainly a fan of immaculate, carefully used cars. However, with older classics mileage is generally irrelevant. I'm thinking of Porsche 356's, which I love, and which are all 40+ years old. Many have undergone restorations, mechanical and body, so the odometer - while important - isn't really something to fixate on. It really is the condition of the car. In a way, there's less stress among that crowd than I hear on f-chat.

 

I guess I’ve always done things wrong and will continue, I only buy garage queens. 5 vets, 4 Porsches and 2 Ferraris later, I still will only buy garage queens. I continue to believe in garage queens and always will.
There are two types of garage queens in my opinion.
#1) garage queens that are well serviced, and they are out there!
#2) garage queens that need a “total service”, most of what is out there.
I personally look for #1, but if the price, color and condition are right #2 has also been an option.
And you know what else I’ve never paid for a PPI either.
#1) records, records and more records.
#2) know the faults and or problems areas of the model, which means research!
Remember: 1 & 1 go hand in hand…….. Dave