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Discussion in '612/599' started by ChalStrad, Jun 28, 2006.

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  1. Murcielago_Boy

    Murcielago_Boy Formula Junior

    May 27, 2004
    495
    UK
    Full Name:
    The Dark Lord
    I totally agree with everything in your post and have had the decency to apologise for something which I conceed may have been interpreted as offensive...
    But I don't agree with your final line I've quoted.

    If you're after a PERFORMANCE supercar then relative speed differences assume a HUGE amount of importance especially as two competitors may look to be priced (new 599 VS used CGT) VERY closely. If you don't care then you're not evaluating the product objectively. And THAT'S the problem. Objectivity has gone out of the window in this thread.

    Like 15HN has already suggested, a prancing horse on the car may be sufficient for some of this boards users to eliminate the need to objectively evaluate a car..... for me it's NOT. The Carrera GT ***MAY**** represent an alternative to the 599 - which car is more useable, comfortable, AND which is faster, and drive better MATTERS.... at least for me and 15hn.
     
  2. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,180
    "If you're after a PERFORMANCE supercar then relative speed differences assume a HUGE amount of importance"


    Here's an assertion without supporting facts: I think very, very few buyers of these cars base their decisions solely or even primarily upon performance.

    Buying solely or primarily for performance brings its own complexity, namely, how to define performance? What do you like: 0-60, 0-100, top speed, laptimes at a short tight road course like Mid Ohio, lap times at a long and horsepower friendly track like Road America, performance in purely stock form, performance in the hands of a pro versus in the hands of a competent amateur versus in the hands of a twit, etc?

    Can anyone here seriously claim that you have chosen among $150,000+ street cars based solely upon performance, as in, I don't want that lousy Zonda because the Koenigsegg has a better 0-60 time (if it does - I have no idea) .... Or, gimme the sport Maybach over the Phantom any old day?

    I'll buy a 599, not a CGT, simply because I prefer the 599.
     
  3. stephens

    stephens F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Feb 13, 2004
    4,647
    Australia
    Full Name:
    Stephen S
    Not meaning to interrupt this deep and meaningful love fest, but the CGT performance numbers are straight of the Porsche web site. What doesn't make any sense to me is the 9.9sec 0-200kmh - in conjunction with the 11.4sec 1/4 mile claim.
    If you were already doing 125mph at the 10 sec mark, surely terminal velocity is going tobe in the order of 130mph... Now a 130mph+ terminal velocity would equate to 10's not 11's down the quarter. I'm not interested in the traction argument either, as this would directly impact the 0-200kmh time.
    Has anyone seen some objective test data on the CGT?
    Now doubt the thing is seriously quick and I'm certainly not questioning whether it is faster accelerating than the 599, as given approximately the same power with 20% less weight, the CGT SHOULD be faster. My question is whether the much faster gear change in the 599, offsets the superior power to weight ratio of the CGT? A dogbox, for example is worth 1.5-2.5secs per lap against a synchro gearbox on the race track, simply because of the much shorter shift times. The CGT has a standard synchro box, and the 599 gear change is as quick as a dogbox.....
    Theoretical BS aside, I have a feeling that on the street, the 599 is going to be at least the equal of the CGT, because ANYONE is able to get 10/10th's out of it with the new electronics, where the CGT requires good old fashioned driver skill.
     
  4. 15hn

    15hn Formula Junior

    Apr 6, 2005
    565
    Full Name:
    HN
    I dont see any logic to that assertion... people buying performance cars not because of their performance?

    Manufacturers and journalists measure the performance, publish this data and we as buyers take it on board. Performance as the sole factor... maybe not, a key factor... definitely.

    Is this what it has come to? We cant possibly say the CGT is quicker (Rosso tinted glasses/prancing horse lovers), so lets just say that performance doesnt matter!

    Why do you prefer the 599 over the CGT?

    Lets imagine for a second... lets switch the badges on the 599 and the CGT... if the 599 was a Porsche NOBODY would buy it. In fact it would be an aesthetic joke and no doubt, someone in Zuffenhausen would be fired. The CGT with a F badge... sold out, resold at a premium, considered iconic and quicker than a 599.
     
  5. stephens

    stephens F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Feb 13, 2004
    4,647
    Australia
    Full Name:
    Stephen S
    Harry, the 599 is the quintessential GT car, if it were released as a successor to the 928 I hardly think it would be a failure. Given mass production it would be half the price as a Porsche too.....
     
  6. J. Salmon

    J. Salmon F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Aug 27, 2005
    4,363
    VA
    You go that right. I will be the first to admit that I would be much faster with the electronic nannies doing their thing. I think the 599 and the CGT are apples and oranges. And both are damn tasty fruit.
     
  7. TOOLFAN

    TOOLFAN F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 23, 2005
    2,807
    California
    Isn't this Ferrarichat? Not the most objective title if you ask me, perhaps cars.com would be better for objectivity? Anyways Congrats on the drive! How did it stack handling wise to other things you've driven?
     
  8. 15hn

    15hn Formula Junior

    Apr 6, 2005
    565
    Full Name:
    HN
    Fair point, although IMO it would be an aesthetic failure as a Porsche particularly when you compare it to the 928 (aesthetically successful) and we all know what happened to that. At half the price is would be about right (997T territory).

    My illustration was to demonstrate that the preference to the 599, certainly in this thread, is based upon its badge. Thats what lead to the biased comments in the first place.

    Here in the UK a used CGT is £50k more than a new 599 with ceramics. If the two were the same price then I would buy the CGT simply because it is the better performance car.
     
  9. Hud

    Hud F1 Veteran
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 26, 2005
    6,416
    UK
    Full Name:
    Rob
    Agree with you Hari - a CGT is £235k - would have on in a shot.
     
  10. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,180
    "I dont see any logic to that assertion... people buying performance cars not because of their performance?

    Manufacturers and journalists measure the performance, publish this data and we as buyers take it on board. Performance as the sole factor... maybe not, a key factor... definitely.

    Is this what it has come to? We cant possibly say the CGT is quicker (Rosso tinted glasses/prancing horse lovers), so lets just say that performance doesnt matter!

    Why do you prefer the 599 over the CGT?"


    I wrote that I don't believe buyers of $150k plus cars make their purchase decisions based solely or primarily upon performance - and I stand by that. What I mean is, I can't believe that the very small differences in performance between a CGT and a 599, or a Zonda and something else, have much to do with purchase decisions. I think buyers expect tremendous performance - which virtually all the cars in the category provide. I suspect most of the decision is based on aesthetics and emotional factors.

    I prefer the 599 to the CGT for completely subjective reasons. I care very much about performance - have raced for years - but just don't think that the performance differences between the two cars matter. I can't take seriously arguments that a Murci is "better" than a 599 - that discussion, though entertaining, seems silly. The CGT of course is a brilliant car - Porsche art - but I just don't like it.

    I have to admit that my personal buying decisions have been influenced by having wasted too much time at tracks. Street car performance, by track standards, really isn't very good - doesn't matter what you buy.

    Writing about which exotic is "better" is an endless task.
     
  11. absent

    absent F1 Veteran
    Lifetime Rossa

    Nov 2, 2003
    8,810
    illinois
    Full Name:
    mark k.
    If people were buying exotics based on performance #s alone,no one would buy a Vanquish or any Aston anymore (last time I checked they still sell pretty well)
     
  12. TBond8

    TBond8 Karting

    Feb 7, 2006
    136
    CT,CA, Europe
    Full Name:
    Thomas
    Thank you for the review of the 599. What a very nice opportunity to be invited to drive the 599 in Italy. I enjoyed your thoughts and feelings about the 599. As has happened to several past Ferraris, I am sure the 599 looks better in person and does grow on those who might not have liked it in the beginning vs photos.

    Regarding the comments on this post. It seems interesting to compare two cars that are built for different design reason as the CGT vs. 599. Personally I like the CGT. I think it is a wonderfully designed car. It has great performance and embodies the better things about Porsche. The CGT is also a car (forgive me for those of you that are Porsche people and take offense) like the Ford GT. No driver aids. This requires the driver to be skilled or have the desire to learn. The CGT is not jump in and race off. The performance / sports cars we are able to buy today are quite beyond most owners driving abilities. All the driver aids allow owners to driver faster with less worry or need to be better drivers. Also regarding the 599 being a Porsche and successor to the 928. Well I think people would still want to buy one. Porsche unfortunately has decided to build lots of cars and enjoy the profit from that. Porsches depreciate that is a fact of life. Porsche is also interested in getting you to trade your current Porsche in for the next latest greatest Porsche until the next one comes out. There is also the next 928 on the design boards and approved. And again the plan is to offer two engines and rear wheel drive and all wheel drive. Why? So that they can sell it to lots of people. Porsche building cars for everyone. Personally I want Porsche to build more special cars like the CGT and not cars for the masses. But as we all know Porsche could not survive that way, thus the Cayenne.

    Personally I like both performance / sports cars. For me there are times like at the track or on an early Sunday morning where I will drive a car like the CGT and play and learn and I will be smiling the whole time. There are also times when I want to drive a great performance / sports car and not have to be thinking about the wet leaves or sand on the road and my angle or speed etc.. I just want to go for a nice drive with my wife and enjoy my day or drive it to work once in awhile. Like it has been said we all choose are cars for many reasons. Some are performance based, some style / look and some for the emotional feelings we get driving it etc.. In the end the difference on the street will be very little and the times and ability to extract the difference not that often. All this IMHO.

    Again thank you for your thoughts and sharing them with us. I look forward to hearing more from you and what you think and drive.

    Thanks
     
  13. 355bnut

    355bnut Karting

    Jan 8, 2006
    238
    Greenwich, CT
    Full Name:
    DomC
    Question for you. At what point or venue are you or any of the other punters ever going to have a chance to compare the utmost limits of these cars? My point is that we are dealing with minutae - incredibly small increments of performance.
    The differences in performance will never be realized in real world experioence which is after all about p[robably at least 99% of the time these cars are driven by normal folks -, ie, not race drivers on a race course.As for comfort and daily use, those who have driven both cars clearly have ranked the 599 above all others. If you ever have a chance to drive the CGT you will notice that its carbon fibre clutch makes it anything but a joy to drive daily, let alone in traffic. You will stall it more often than you will care to.
    Thus, objectively looking at the "real world" the 599 has CGT and Enzo comparable performance, will outhandle anything else, will leave the Murci in the absolute dust on anything other than a pure straight line, and it will do so in total comfort, in a spacious interior. Face the facts, the Murci is a single purpose supercar on a 20+ year old chassy and should not be expected to be a real competitor for the 599. It's job is done, it is in modern terms a dinosaur of a car much like the Daytona or Boxer, but without their appeal and heritage.
     
  14. Murcielago_Boy

    Murcielago_Boy Formula Junior

    May 27, 2004
    495
    UK
    Full Name:
    The Dark Lord
    We're not comparing cars that are within a tenth of each other in a given random acceleration run. These are BIG differences: 0-200km/h in 9.9seconds translates into a MUCH faster car than 0-200km/h in 11.0. You'll know that a second difference in a 1/4 mile time is BIG difference in outright acceleration.
    The best example of this is that minute differences between cars in 0-60mph times, when extrapolated to higher speeds paint dramatically different acceleration profiles. These are more than significant enough to give a very different performance feel for straighforward road use. So although you make a valid point about the relevance of these numbers, get into a 360 after a 355, and although the difference between outright numbers will be small, the driving experience will be very different.

    As regards comparisons to the Murcielago - I largely AGREE with your comments that the 599 is very likely to be a MUCH better driving car and that the Murcie is old hat... You're right! Edited to say - I've actually had a murcielago.
    BUT...one thing the 599 will NEVER be for me at least, is beautiful. It's styling is unresolved and it's GT character is not suited to my preferences - I'm in my early 20's and do NOT want performance bereft of drama.. unless the peformance on offer offsets the general "blandness" of the styling and GT nature of the car.
    The performance on offer would have to equal the CGT. This is something I think the 599 does NOT deliver and that's why the relentless bickering on this board have started - people said it did - I said no - they can't stand our beloved Ferrari brand to be criticised - cue rose-tinted posts ad infinitem.... I know it's Ferrarichat but guys we're not FORCED to love every thing that comes out of Maranello.
    Good grief.
     
  15. maranello71

    maranello71 Formula 3

    Jan 23, 2004
    1,221
    Chicagoland
    Full Name:
    Andre
    have detailed test data on the Porsche Carrera GT.

    Carrera GT registration S-GO 447, tested in Germany, June 2004 (Car&Driver): 0-60 3.5s, 0-100 6.8s, 1/4 mile 11.2s.

    Carrera GT registration S-GO 449, tested in Italy, August 2004 (VERY hot weather): 0-62 4.0s, 0-100 7.7s, 1/4 mile 11.7s.

    Carrera GT tested in Germany by Sport Auto magazine (January 2004): 0-62 3.8s, 0-100 7.2s, Nürburgring and Hockenheim lap records for production cars (7min32s, 1min08.6s).

    There is no question that the Carrera GT is on a different planet. With 1/4 mile times in the low/mid 11s and lap times worthy of a racing car it is a contender on a par with the Ferrari Enzo, way beyond "normal" cars such as the 599GTB or Murcielago. I have huge respect for the Carrera GT, as it offers all this at a fraction of the cost of a Pagani or of an Enzo.

    Coming back to the 599GTB, IMHO it will place itself in between the "ultra-cars" such as the CGT and the mere "supercars" such as the 997TT in terms of outright performance. Effectively the 599GTB and the Murcielago LP640 will re-define the benchmark for "production" supercars.
     
  16. RocketBoy

    RocketBoy Formula 3

    Feb 13, 2004
    1,082
    Wisconsin
    Full Name:
    Professor Hajji
    Sadly you are right. And the majority of the bias and mud slinging threads are from rabid fans/people who can't even afford the cars yet boast claims and opinion because of the great magazine reading they have done or from the mad track time in that 308 they drive. There are few people I would make a weak claim of having absolute trust in their opinion without meeting in person but Stephens I respect a lot. There are numerous times I have seen fact based posts by experienced owners and drivers be the minority against red tinted love. Based on the numbers and if ChalStrad's experience with the shifting and feel for the car I like it even more. Not based on a love for all things Ferrari but for being a rare fan of the car's styling and hearing new and great things about it more and more ( thanks ChalStrad ) along with great stats from others ( such as Stephens' GT racing, ) to base it upon. You may not like the styling Nik but I do. My opinion is definitely not because I have a sub to Forza however... Fchat has a little too much bias that originates from not a whole lot. I have to state that no matter a valid a point you make, even if it something as small as to your looks choice, it can be blasted for no reason on this site if it isn't rah rah Ferrari. It sucks but that's what you have to deal with here... But this is one vote to say based on all that I have seen and heard, I like the car and wouldn't mind trying one out one day. One vote for good looks and stat wise and ChalStrad's experience makes it sound like a land based business jet.
     
  17. jorge.rios

    jorge.rios F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 2, 2006
    11,420
    Monterrey
    Full Name:
    Jorge
    Your so lucky
     
  18. deanger

    deanger Rookie

    Nov 10, 2003
    48
    You can actually probably get a CGT cheaper than a 599. lol
     
  19. gougoul

    gougoul Formula 3

    Nov 25, 2004
    1,304
    Geneva, Switzerland
    I still don't understand these battles...

    On the road, the difference will be very small anyway. It ends up that the dumber/richer will be the fastest. Not the one having the best car.
    I mean, can you count what 1/10th of a second is ?
    You can take 30 times more just to pull the trigger and start off the line. Meaning on a street race, you'll be smoked.

    Technically, the CGT is far more superior while being a great driver car, giving a rewarding experience that one can't measure in seconds. It's the same thing that makes you proud wearing a real rolex watch in Italy. You're the only one to know.
    A great downshift makes me happier than laping a track 0.5 secs quicker, or accelerating faster that .2 secs than another car.

    Lastly, i'm not a ferrari fan, nor a Porsche fan. It means nothing to me.
    All i see is that an expensive car should WORK much better than a cheap one.
     
  20. alin13

    alin13 Karting

    Jan 1, 2006
    230
    Since some of you wants to compare 599 and CGT, how about comparing the 599 to the Enzo? If the 599 is so close to the CGT and Enzo in terms of performance, then how can we justify the Enzo costing about twice the 599? Physics don't lie, given the power and the weight figures, there's no way that the 599 can be compared directy to the CGT, but the 599 is IMO a greater car, as it is just about the most practical Supercar ever made yet still has performance close enough to the CGT and the Enzo for most normal drivers.
     
  21. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,349
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Alot of you guys have said people buy these cars because of the performances levels, which may be true for SOME. But the majority of buyers of these cars will never push the car to its limits. The car will more or less be a driver for putting around to the golf course.

    The compairison to the CGT is null and void. They are 2 different cars, with different design objectives. The CGT is an amazing machine with performance that has yet to be beat by anything thing other than the ZondaF..

    The 599 is also an outstanding machine. I have yet to drive one, but the numbers and reviews in the magazines put it on a different level then the boy racerish CGT. It has style that is classy and NOT in your face "look at me". It has a beautiful interior with all the bells and whistles one could want. It is designed to go fast over long distances in comfort but also to perform like a car half its size.

    It is overall a better car then the CGT IMHO because it is a more usable and enjoyable package. Somtimes its not about going fast. In fact most times it isn't.
     
  22. Sfumato

    Sfumato F1 World Champ

    Nov 1, 2003
    10,194
    Llanfairpwllgwyngyll, Anglesey, Wales
    Full Name:
    Angus Podgorney
    #47 Sfumato, Jul 3, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    +1.
    I am one of the "some" who will run the wheels off this thing, enjoy the 300+K price break on the Enzo, and the relative anonymity of it. Thing will never see a country club or golf clubs either.
    Also, if you crack the tub in a CGT when some idiot runs into you, or your Enzo, for that matter, check the price on a repair. You won't have nearly that problem with the 599.
    Rain sense wipers, auto headlights, nice seats and sound, and a big trunk. Sadly will leave the Maranello, a truly useable Ferrari, in the dust both in performance and practicality.
    And it comes with a trunk monkey ;)
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  23. Jsuit

    Jsuit Formula 3

    Jul 12, 2005
    1,178
    East Coast
    Full Name:
    John
    No matter what Ferrari produces the Lambo, and Porsche detractors on this board would not admit nor believe a Ferrari will beat/ outperform their favorite model even if they were driving the Ferrari accross the finish line.

    Why they are here in the first place in beyond me, and seem to live to be the detractors.
     
  24. LMP234

    LMP234 Formula 3

    May 8, 2004
    1,518
    TN
    Full Name:
    Leon
    I'll pop in to say thanks for the write up, I enjoyed reading it.
     
  25. 15hn

    15hn Formula Junior

    Apr 6, 2005
    565
    Full Name:
    HN
    Mercedes, BMW, etc sell very good cars for those who want comfort, anonymity and everyday utility.

    I'd rather have the car that captures the essence of 'Ferrari'. IMO I believe this is the CGT.
     

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