348 cylinder bank out | FerrariChat

348 cylinder bank out

Discussion in '348/355' started by IanMac, May 28, 2008.

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  1. IanMac

    IanMac Formula 3

    Jul 26, 2006
    1,453
    Scotland
    Full Name:
    Ian
    My '91 348tb has developed an intermittent fault during which it runs on only four cylinders, the left bank stops running. It has happened three times in the last couple of weeks, twice on start up and once during a run after about 20 miles, at other times it runs normally. When the fault is present the rev counter also fails. No warning lights come on. When the bank is out there is no spark at the plugs on that side. I have tried swapping the ECUs from one side to the other but that made no difference.

    If anyone has experienced a similar problem or can suggest a cause/cure I'd be grateful for your advice.
     
  2. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,576
    The Brickyard
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    The Bad Guy
    When you say ecu's, are you referring to the cat temp ecu's located behind the shock towers, or the ecu's behind the seats?
     
  3. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,576
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    Try disconnecting the cat ecu's completely, and leave them unhooked, then start the car and see what happens.
     
  4. IanMac

    IanMac Formula 3

    Jul 26, 2006
    1,453
    Scotland
    Full Name:
    Ian
    Ernie

    The main ECUs behind the seats. I don't have cats on the car although the ECUs are still there, but I'm not getting any slow down warning lights when the problem arises.
     
  5. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,576
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    Have you disconnected the cat ecu's completely yet? If not, go unplug them and then start the car.
     
  6. FandLcars

    FandLcars F1 Rookie

    Aug 6, 2006
    3,057
    Tempe, Az
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    Rick Schumm
    I've never tried to troubleshoot this on my car, but if swapping the Ecus make no difference, that should mean it's not the Ecu itself (good!)..... (don't mean to step in on your help with this Brother here ernie). That likely means it's actually either a high catalytic converter temperature, or a faulty signal of some type on the bank that's cutting out. Do you get dash warning lights when it happens?

    If the catalytic converter on that bank is not getting unusually hot, it's more likely a faulty thermocouple, Cat ECU, or intermittent bad electrical connection in those systems that sends a false signal to the main ECU (can cause the ECU to shut off that bank). Not sure if faulty O2 sensor or connections would also cause a bank shutdown... don't think so. Anyway, sounds like you should check connections at the Cat and Cat ECU .. clean them and then make sure they're attached properly. Good luck with the troubleshooting! :)
     
  7. FandLcars

    FandLcars F1 Rookie

    Aug 6, 2006
    3,057
    Tempe, Az
    Full Name:
    Rick Schumm
    Just read closer that you don't have Cats!! Sorry about that :eek: ...I was just trying to rush through posts before getting back to work on the car. It does seem that the main ECU is cutting your bank out.. seems to be getting a false signal perhaps from the Cat ECU, which is why Ernie suggested disconnecting them (don't mean to mess up your help Ernie. If you still have the thermocouples connected up to the ECU, perhaps they could have gone faulty, or perhaps the connection has gone bad. I'm sure Enrie is correct... try to make sure the Cat ECUs are completely disconnected... and post any dash warning lights you're getting.
     
  8. IanMac

    IanMac Formula 3

    Jul 26, 2006
    1,453
    Scotland
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    Ian
    Thanks for the advice guys, I'll try that tomorrow. One problem is that it is an intermittent fault, nine times out of ten the car will start and run properly, so if I disconnect the ECUs and it starts I won't know for sure if disconnecting them has actually done something or if the fault is still there but not making itself felt on this occasion. Does the failure of the rev counter when the problem occurs help with a diagnosis?
     
  9. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

    May 21, 2005
    72,740
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    Mr. Sideways
    That's an easy one. You have an ECU relay that is failing. It is located in your passenger footwell. You can replace it (best option) or at least swap the left ECU relay with the right ECU relay to watch the problem switch banks.

    Also, check that your CEL 1-4 and CEL 5-8 lights are illuminating briefly at startup. You may have missing or burned out warning bulbs.
     
  10. IanMac

    IanMac Formula 3

    Jul 26, 2006
    1,453
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    Ian
    Thanks for your advice.

    A couple of points: From the manual I can't identify the ECU relays. There are relays for "fuel pump" and "actuation of injection nozzles" (for cylinders 1-4 and 5-8 in both cases), are either of those the ECU relays?
    According to my manual the check engine lights are "not used" on my car (perhaps only on USA models?).

    Thanks again.
     
  11. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Check engine lights not use on your car?????????? I thought that the Euro cars couldn't pull the codes but still got the light? Something doesn't sound right.

    As for the problem being intermittent, the next time it gives you a problem turn the car off, open the engine lid, disconnect the catalytic converter temperature ecu for the bank you think wasn't running, then go start the car again. See if the bank will then fire.

    What I'm getting at is that I think your cat ecu/s is the problem. When the cat temp ecu thinks that the cat is getting hot it will send a signal to the Motronic ecu to shut the bank down. Well since you have no cats it should never get an over heating signal. Sooooooooooo there really is no need for you to run the cat ecu's to monitor the temperature of pipe that won't over heat. Capiche?
     
  12. IanMac

    IanMac Formula 3

    Jul 26, 2006
    1,453
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    Ian
    Cheers Ernie, I'll give that a try next time it happens. It fired up on all eight today but it'll no doubt happen again soon.

    As for the CELs I was quoting from pages H5 and H6 of my manual which says that items 5 and 12 (the check lights) are "not used".
     
  13. chrisx666

    chrisx666 Formula Junior

    Dec 6, 2004
    562
    YorkshireUK
    Full Name:
    Chris B
    No CElights on Euro cars (except maybe Swiss spec). To display the codes you need to fit a small harness/pushbutton (Farrari part) near the ECU and put bulbs in the dash.
     
  14. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

    May 21, 2005
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    Mr. Sideways

    "actuation of injection nozzles" sounds right.

    As for the CELs, just insert bulbs in there...they'll start to work immediately if you have Motronic 2.7.

    After an ECU relay goes out, your CEL will come on as your ECU turns back on (when the relay kicks in again). Just like at startup, your ECU will repeat its self-test.

    And because a bad relay turns off (then back on) your ECU, your error codes will be lost...there won't be any codes to pull if you have an ECU relay problem. They'll be lost each time.
     

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