K & N for 360! | Page 2 | FerrariChat

K & N for 360!

Discussion in '360/430' started by SrfCity, Jan 18, 2004.

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  1. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
    8,520
    Melbourne
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    Phil Hughes
    The main reason is that Michelotto won't sell parts to you unless you have an N-GT car!

    My customer owns a challenge car for club use.

    I am restricted to buying whatever parts I can find available. My italian source has these, so that's what I use.

    The inlet cam is the same however, from step 2.5 throught step 2.75, step 3 and to step 4 EVO. The only internal difference subsequently is exhaust cam changes.

    Other changes are to programming, reliability tweaks and air box/exhaust types.

    The N-GT have 13:1 pistons, which means the sole use of ELF 102 fuel (at AUS $6/lt delivered in 50 lt). With nearer 12:1, I can use either optimax 98 RON or ELF 102. Which makes it more practical for the club scene.

    The ELF distributor thinks Optimax will cost me about 5-7 Kw, or 7-10 BHP. I'll try to do a test at some time to see for myself.
     
  2. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

    Sep 4, 2001
    12,887
    Cumming, Georgia
    Full Name:
    Franklin E. Parker
    I had a problem with the air mass meters on my M5 caused by K&N Filters. After the meters were replaced under warranty I have used paper filters every since with no problems.
     
  3. ROLOcr

    ROLOcr Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2005
    619
    Costa Rica
    Full Name:
    ROLO
    thru search i found this about K&N filters, i'm about to order a couple for a modena, in personal experience they do work and the damage the mass sensor IF YOU DO NOT OIL THEM PROPERLY

    any more comments on these hi performance filters??
     
  4. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    Jan 16, 2005
    4,661
    and live in a dust free climate just wash and dry the filters with detergent before you use them, that really doesn't need a PhD
     
  5. ROLOcr

    ROLOcr Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2005
    619
    Costa Rica
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    ROLO
    not even detergent,cause it may damage the fiber, use the washing fluid that comes with the recharge kit from K&N
     
  6. SrfCity

    SrfCity F1 World Champ

    IMO these arent worth the risk for the limited, if any, gains.
     
  7. RossoCorsaItaly

    RossoCorsaItaly F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 9, 2004
    4,545
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    Kevin
    I have a dyno graph that shows a 2whp increase from changing OEM filters to BMC on our personal 360.
     
  8. ROLOcr

    ROLOcr Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2005
    619
    Costa Rica
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    ROLO
    where can i get BMC filters??
     
  9. RossoCorsaItaly

    RossoCorsaItaly F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 9, 2004
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    Kevin
    Alot of places. We usually keep them in stock, 940-683-8100 or email [email protected]
     
  10. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
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    Phil Hughes
    Of course you're entitled to that opinion, but I urge you to try it with an open mind.

    The gains are tangible, and demonstrable with a stopwatch and a race track.

    Remeber too, that you never need to buy another air filter.... ever.

    And the only need cleaning occasionally, not even every service, just when dirty by eye.

    The oiling is a human problem, not an technical one.
     
  11. SrfCity

    SrfCity F1 World Champ

    Sure, plus it helps when you're constantly tearing apart the engine to keep an eye on things and clean oil residue etc so things don't get gummed up. ;)
     
  12. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    Jan 16, 2005
    4,661
    appear visually identical is it the same manufacturer for both in this instance ?
     
  13. RossoCorsaItaly

    RossoCorsaItaly F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 9, 2004
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    Very highly doubt it. One may have copied the other but the filters manufactured in-house from what I know.
     
  14. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
    8,520
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    Phil Hughes
    Err, wrong there.

    The 360 takes it's air from a very clean spot, so even paper filters last for ages.

    I don't see any more dirt coming through a BMC or Green Cotton than I do a paper one.

    Beside, more dirt and gremlins come from the crankcase ventilation system, which is sucked into the engine unfiltered and is extremely hot.

    If you REALLY were worried about dirt, you'd fit a remote catch tank to your crank vent system. If you're just scaremongering on a hunch, you've got it wrong.

    Don't get me wrong, there are some cars that suck really dirty air from the front grille area, and they can and do let dirt in, but a 360 isn't one of them.
     
  15. ROLOcr

    ROLOcr Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2005
    619
    Costa Rica
    Full Name:
    ROLO
    like the maserati spider and the coupe which suck air rigth thru the front bumper, even in shallow puddles it can suck water, one car in panama did it



    anyway, i ordered the filters today, in my opinion they work!!
     
  16. csteve

    csteve Karting

    May 6, 2006
    172
    hong kong
    Full Name:
    steve chang
    I am using K&N on my 360....honestly, I can not feel any difference in performance gain. money wasted in my view.
     
  17. ROLOcr

    ROLOcr Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2005
    619
    Costa Rica
    Full Name:
    ROLO
    i installed k&n on a modena and you can feel a small difference. Not a waste of money because you can wash them and reuse them.
     
  18. masslaw

    masslaw Karting

    Sep 4, 2007
    54
    MA
    Full Name:
    Mike C.
    I feel no difference, but can hear a difference in the intake note when the window is down.
     
  19. mgtr1990

    mgtr1990 Formula 3

    Mar 30, 2005
    1,580
    Naples Florida
    Full Name:
    Martin Graham
    I put BMC filters on my 360 cant feel anydifference but you can hear the air intake more of course in the Spider with the top down its right beside your ear
     
  20. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    Jan 16, 2005
    4,661
    so let me think about this, you can hear the difference but not feel it, something from the equation is missing here ?
     
  21. Mark from Ork

    Mark from Ork Formula Junior

    May 29, 2007
    449
    Miami Biatch
    No, it's like if I speak to you softly, or scream at you loudly, you can hear the difference but don't feel anything.
     
  22. 8haggis

    8haggis Rookie

    Jun 15, 2008
    40
    Novi, MI
    K&N...the age old debate. If anyone is interested in the opinions of a guy who runs the engineering department of a major manufacturer of OEM grade engine air cleaners:
    K&N needs to be oiled because the oil itself does most of the filtration, not the fibers of the media.
    The OEM filters (if they are dry type) use the fibers of the paper or PET non-woven fabric to trap the contaminates.
    Since the K&N filter has a very sparse placement of media fibers and relies so heavily on the oil to filter, the performance is considered very poor for 2 reasons:
    1. Filtration efficiency is low (dirt in - dirt out = filtration efficiency)
    2. Dust holding capacity is low (restriction of element increases dramatically as the filter becomes dirty. And that means that any performance gains seen when it is clean, quickly evaporate as the filter becomes dirty.)
    Due to poor efficiency and low DHC, K&N filters do not met the filter requirements of a base level Dodge Neon, let alone an F-car which runs much tighter tolerances and much higher stresses on the powertrain.
    Since K&N filters are not intended to be fitted to the car, the MAFS sensor is not validated to the level of oil exposure which occurs with such a unit. (Granted, most MAFS problems do occur due to too much oil applied by the user, but very few of us have a manufacturing plant in our backyard and cannot control the oil well enough. If you under-oil to protect the MAFS, you limit the filtration capability of the element because the base media does not do much.)
    The OEM sets very specific filtration requirements and DHC targets and a pressure drop requirement to produce the highest power output without causing engine damage for the life of the filter for 100% of the users.
    I currently drive a P-car, but when I get my 360, you can bet your life it will never see a K&N filter.
     
  23. csteve

    csteve Karting

    May 6, 2006
    172
    hong kong
    Full Name:
    steve chang
    how often do i need to clean these filters?
     
  24. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    May 21, 2006
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    You never need to change them per se. All you do is take the filters out, wash them off and re-oil them. K&N sells a filter recharger kit for about $15 or $20. Probably once ever 5 or 10K miles depending on how dusty the area you drive is.

    Ray
     
  25. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    May 21, 2006
    7,403
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    Ray
    give me a break...

    I used to run my race motors with no filter at all, just open velocity stacks and short of putting the cylinder walls under an electron scanning microscope, I really doubt if anyone could tell the difference between one motor with a filter and one without a filter. I'm not suggesting you run your brand new 360 or 430 with no filters, but I seriously doubt using or not using a K&N oiled filter vs. a cheap paper element filter is going to make any damn difference whatsoever over the life of your average Ferrari.

    I mean, any microscopic dust that is draw into the motor is probably incinerated during the huge high pressure explosion that occurs in the combustion chamber anyway. I frankly would be more worried about the carbon produced during the explosion inside the chamber. If anything, I would say the restrictive nature of your average paper element could potentially do more harm to the motor than any small amount of dust that a K&N filter "might not" stop.

    The whole debate is so "splitting hairs" that it's probably not even worth the bandwidth I'm wasting by typing this reply :)

    Ray
     

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