A Lot of Metal will cross the Block

Sadly yes, there it is..I guess it was too much $$$$ in one spot. This may be a good time to liquidate....

 

Walter Medlin has one more, although IIRC his is a 365BB/LM

 

Correct. WM's is/was not a Silhouette car. Converted street car, IIRC.

CW

 

Moto Giro rocks but do not rent a bike to ride in the event use your own bike.

 

Todays modded BBLM's I think are putting out 600-650 HP while the stock ones put out 400.

One of my fav cars to see at a vintage race. They sound fantastic.

 

The actual figures are always in dispute. The stock BBLM motor was rated at 480bhp (at the crank). I've seen the actual dyno sheets on "hot rod" BBLM motors showing numbers in the 520bhp +/- range (again, at the crank). There is also a significant jump in the torque curves. That said, while it may be possible to eke some more bhp out of them, I don't think another 100+bhp is in the realm of possibility. I have seen, however, a BBLM pull away under acceleration from a 512S/M, which does have higher bhp figures. So, who really knows?

And, while the latest generation of hot rodded BBLM motors may be putting out high numbers, the question remains as to how they get there. The blocks have been bored out, there are paper-thin walls left, the compression is nudged up, the timing adjusted...and so on. And, as a result, the durability and life of these motors has dropped. I know of a BBLM hot rod motor (built by one of the more "reputable" and known shops) that lasted all of ONE lap before going up. Grenades with pins pulled.

CW

 

The numbers I was quoted were from a mechanic that is very familiar with these cars.

The motors are not built for long life but for max HP. I raced many a Bultaco motorcycle engineered the same way. LOL

 

Our guys are familiar with the numbers, too. And, with boring out to almost 6 liters and stroking to a much higher compression, I imagine that it's possible to find another 50bhp+/-. Maybe more. And, pulling on a 512S/M could certainly be accounted for by any other number of factors.

But, as noted, the motors also have to last the distance. The ex-Historic Challenge races were 20-laps, which aren't exactly "endurance" events. But, just how far is one willing to go? The intent was never to stretch the hardware to the point it blows up. From a technical and engineering standpoint, I think it's interesting to see how much bhp can be produced, but the truth is that you're talking $75-100K on top of the cost of a donor motor just to run at the front of a historic series. One in which the cars are certified by Classiche. And, even in other historic series, what's the competition? A BBLM probably can't beat a 935 or 956/962 no matter how much engine work is done. So, other than having a bored- and tricked-out motor for competition against other BBLMs that's essentially timing out after every weekend, it's hard to justify. Cool, but unnecessary and against the intent of the historics.

I realize these are tangential issues, though. I haven't ever seen a 600+bhp dyno sheet for a BBLM. Doesn't mean it's impossible, but until I see one, I have only what I've seen with my own eyes.

CW

 

I wonder if this is the start of a trend. Without the mega-collectors there would be a lot more cars floating around.

George

 

So since many of the cars being offered in Monterey have been for sale via broker for some time already, and further, it should be figured that many others were on offer "discretely".... is it reasonable to think that these cars are coming to auction as a last resort? And if so, shouldn't that say something about the market?

I always figured that in an up market (short supply, high demand), auctions are the first place to go to get the highest price; in down markets (high supply, low demand), auctions are last. So far this year there have been a significant number of no sales on not meeting reserve. Combine that with the fact that those who are intelligent and able to spend are patient and will withhold overpaying for pieces in less-than-stellar condition. I would not be surprised to see a large number of no-sales in 2 weeks.... perhaps the most in several years at Pebble.

A significant reason the Glickenhaus name is still holding strong on Wall Street. If only the boys at Lehman and Bear Stearns followed such a maxim...

 

If anyone has pics of the 1989 or 1990 FCA National held at Road Atlanta, Medlin had the car there, as well as assorted FCA Florida Region events in the 1990s.

KevFla

 

Makes sense, on all counts.
This will be a very interesting auction season.

 

I am an optimist BUT I can see either

A - numbers well down, almost a repeat of 1991 or at least lots of no sales at near reserve

OR

B - another record year

And who the hell knows. Could be $60 mil or $140 mil. Will be truly fascinating to see what happens. If it is the former and things have somewhat fallen off the proverbial cliff will we see a lot of people ditching and running very quickly ?............................. and will this exacerbate the current problem, or is everyone wealthy enough to hold til the next up cycle lets say in 2015 - 2020 ???????????.......

Whatever happens, watch this space

 

I find myself in that situation right now ....to many cars and not enough time to enjoy them all. Don't want to sell, but hate seeing them sit. Also, It's time to move on and "freshen the Fleet" so to speak.

 

Len,
My question, to take this further, is whether someone like yourself will replace what you sell with other highly desireable, valuable cars. It would take a considerable net worth to puchase any of the Ferrari's that you list as owning. There can't be an unlimited number of people able (or willing) to acquire multiple cars of this caliber. If enough multi-car collectors sell even half of their stable I can't see how we won't have a correction at the top end, which has been fairly stable through all of this. On the other hand, maybe there is enough new blood coming into the market, or others willing to keep adding to their collections..... It would be interesting to hear from someone who is actively "growing" a collection. One thing is for sure, nothing will stay the same.

George

 

Very interesting points, I personally have been comparing the current situation with what happened 1989 -1991 and the coming wave of sales could be the peak of a wave leading to a severe correction or maybe not. After all back then a lot of people purchased auto's as an investment and they had no wish to specifically own/ drive just wanted to make money. As far as I can tell most of the $2 mil. + autos I have followed are with end users and they drive them, show them, enjoy their ownership. So I dont think their are investors looking to ditch their investment.
Secondly, the other issue might be debt levels but the sort of owners of multi million $ classics dont seem likely to have huge debt, we arent talking the ENZO/ VEYRON market..... so maybe they dont need the cash, dont need to sell, and its just good timing to release the vehicle before we have a gentle downwards push on prices with say the following

250TR - high (2005/6) $20 mil. - 2009/2010 $12 mil. - 2012/2013 - $8 - 9 mil.
250TDF - high (2007/8) $5 mil. - 2009/2010 $3 - 4 mil. - 2012/2013 - $2 - 3 mil.

In my view we wont have a correction but we will have a gentle lowering of prices...............

 

Nothing gentle about the push! I would hate to think what you think is a violent push...

Question: I have never heard of 250TR prices approaching or reaching 20 million. Have I missed something? 714TR was an auction record, have others exchanged hands for DOUBLE the price? Seems unlikely...


Onno

 

Hi

Not a few years ago 2004 - 2005 250 GTO's had hit the 20 - 30 mil. mark, and any discussion of pontoon Testa Rossa's had the best pegged at near $20 mil. Now a year or so ago we saw the testa Rossa at RM sell for approx. $12 mil. and GTO sales in the $15 - 17 mil. area which is still a long way from the mid 90's when they were $5 mil. and $3 mil. respectively............... Will we ever see them drop to that level again, unlikely ? but that would be the question ...................

 

Luxury goods and the art market are mounting a strong comeback, so the same could prove true for collector automobiles...at least at the upper end.

Jack.

 

No 250 TR has sold for 20MM USD. There is a TR that has sold for higher than 0714 however.

 

0756?

 

Not trying to be funny but where do the selling numbers come from that so many keep using??? Except for the sale of 0714/TR, the sales of the four GTOS and like number of TRs we have done have been confidential and not even remotely along the lines posted on this thread.

Three GTOs did trade hands at very high prices in the past 24 months. Each was a "good" example. The four or five "great" examples simply are not for sale at any price no matter what is offered. The rest likely fall somewhere in between but it does not really matter as they are not for sale anyway.

Jim will likely tell you that he has been offered great deals on a GTO and passed.

Except for two very questionable GTOs with severe "issues" no current owner is going to sell cheap in this market. There are two high-profile buyers ready to jump on any of the other GTOs except those two at $12M+ but none of the current owners wants or needs the money. These are real "standing offers" from end user to current owner without broker, dealer or any middlemen in between.

If you want to know what it takes to buy and sell a GTO in today's market chat up Tom Price at the track next week in Monterey and hear it from someone who has been there and knows from a time when they were relatively reasonable to their current elevated levels.

The problem with the TRs is too many myths and rumors regarding good vs bad examples. Most of those that are thought of as being great are really not quite as nice as believed. Great TRs simply come on the market very rarely. Just two exceptional, no-issue machines have been sold in modern times, one this decade and another more than 10 years ago.

The same cannot be said for the later TR59/60 variants of which all four have had several homes over the past 20 years. These are in a completely different category and the way they have traded would be difficult at best to explain.

Anyway... just some thoughts... in any case, next week is sure to be fun, hope when its over sellers, buyers, racers and spectators alike will have enjoyed the show!

Bill Noon

 

(a) do you mean Tom PRICE?

(b) 0756 last sold in 2008; 0714 in 2009. Sounds like the SAME decade to me.

 

Yes, Price, not Perkins... sorry getting late.

0756/TR has sold twice in the past ten years but nowhere near the supposed $20M mark some have suggested. It did not quite double its value in ten years. The last sale also involved trades to equalize out the transaction.

Cheers,

Bill

 

0714 and 0756 BOTH most recently sold in the VERY SAME decade. For that matter, a THIRD one (0704 in 2006-2007) also sold in the same decade as 0714 and 0756.

Therefore, the above quote is inaccurate (unless, of course, you DO NOT consider TWO of the above-listed Testa Rossas to be "no-issue machines").