BB365 ignition Q. Timing out by 30 degrees.

I recently added a new ignition system to my BB365. It is an Australian made ICE Ignition system and is very small and very powerful. Original distributor is still fitted and in good condition.

Car has single coil and single distributor.

I recently timed the ignition and all three marks came up pretty much where expected, at idle, at 3300rpm and at 5500rpm.

However, after removing and refitting a faulty module the timing marks are all out by 30 degrees (30 deg to advanced). i.e I can sight the +38deg mark almost at idle.

So I am talking about 30 crankshaft degrees or 15 degrees at the camshaft or dizzy. This equates to half the distance between posts in the dizzy.

Strangely, the car runs ok, no hint of a ping etc. If I retard the timing, she runs badly or not at all. However, car runs on 10 or 11 untill about 3000 rpm and then really wakes up on all 12.

This is not as simple as it may sound. I have spent hours on this with dizzy out 5 or 6 times. My regular vintage ferrari mechanic has no answer, the designer of ICE ignition likewise. Finally I have spent 2 afternoons with a company that specialise in distributor rebuilds and ignition systems and they too are scratching there heads. Four mechanics, no answer.


It seems to me that perhaps the spark is jumping to the wrong post in dist cap, and as the advance kicks in, the spark jumps to correct post. But how to correct?

For instant guru status, what is going on here.

 

skl63
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Thanks Adrian,

I will check this with ICE. The unit in Q is 7Amp, non EFI box, with an internal module to suit magnetic pickup. Definitely 2 trigger wires.

The 1st unit failed quickly, but the current unit has done several hundred kms, with plenty at WOT.

Cheers
Scott

Quote:
Originally Posted by alhbln

The AEC104BK triggers on a rising edge, so you should probably have received a "7000E - 7 AMP Ignition Module suit rising trigger - 4 wire hook-up - EFI". You mentioned two trigger wires, according to the Ice installation manual this would point to a 'falling trigger' module.

BTW, the Ice website only refers to an ECU (EFI) or OE box for triggering (e.g. +12V square wave), a VR sensor (magnetic pickup in the distributor) as installed in the 365BB is not mentioned anywhere. Did Ice mention that their ignition is compatible with an VR sensor/magnetic pickup signal?

Do you know why your previous Ice module broke down, and after how many miles did this happen? The reason i ask is that a magnetic pickup has a rising output voltage with higher speed, so an output signal with 40-60 volts at WOT is not uncommon. If the Ice ignition only has a +12 V input stage for the trigger signal (as with an ECU or OE input), the high output voltage of the VR sensor might kill the input stage at some point.

#20
Today, 05:26 PM
alhbln
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The AEC104BK triggers on a rising edge, so you should probably have received a "7000E - 7 AMP Ignition Module suit rising trigger - 4 wire hook-up - EFI". You mentioned two trigger wires, according to the Ice installation manual this would point to a 'falling trigger' module.

BTW, the Ice website only refers to an ECU (EFI) or OE box for triggering (e.g. +12V square wave), a VR sensor (magnetic pickup in the distributor) as installed in the 365BB is not mentioned anywhere. Did Ice mention that their ignition is compatible with an VR sensor/magnetic pickup signal?

Do you know why your previous Ice module broke down, and after how many miles did this happen? The reason i ask is that a magnetic pickup has a rising output voltage with higher speed, so an output signal with 40-60 volts at WOT is not uncommon. If the Ice ignition only has a +12 V input stage for the trigger signal (as with an ECU or OE input), the high output voltage of the VR sensor might kill the input stage at some point.

#19
Today, 12:27 AM
alhbln
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Magnusson
My advice would be to try to replicate the star wheel -to- detector feature relationship shown in the OM figure as a starting point; however, (since you are using a non-stock igniton ECU) if that doesn't seem to work, then experiment with slightly changing the star wheel -to- detector feature relationship to see if it helps or hurts (in order to figure out where it should be for your system).
Good point Steve, modifying the rotor phase as above provides a fix even for a wrong ignition trigger type (you just move the rotor some degrees forward or backward to either comply with a falling or rising trigger edge), so its a good approach.

Why the rotor phasing has changing while Scott just exchanged a defective ignition module beats me though. I'll have a look at the original ignition unit (AEC104BK) tonight and check if it triggers on a rising or falling edge, then we could compare that with the current Ice module you have.

#18
Today, 12:13 AM

Steve Magnusson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skl63
...No hole in my "star". What is the purpose? I presume it is just to index the rotor relative to the camshaft....
No, it's purpose (if you had one ) is to (more easily) set/confirm the star wheel's postion relative to pick-up when the narrow rotor end of the rotor is aligned with the mark on the rim. In the OM figure, when the narrow rotor end is pointing at the mark (and the reference holes are lined up), one tooth of the star wheel is shown as being slightly (4 deg) past the detector feature in the pickup. In your photo, it looks like the tooth on the star wheel closest to the pickup is positioned a little before the detector feature (but I can't really see the true detector feature in the pickup in the photo so can't be sure).

My advice would be to try to replicate the star wheel -to- detector feature relationship shown in the OM figure as a starting point; however, (since you are using a non-stock igniton ECU) if that doesn't seem to work, then experiment with slightly changing the star wheel -to- detector feature relationship to see if it helps or hurts (in order to figure out where it should be for your system).

#17
Yesterday, 09:46 PM
skl63
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Thanks Adrian,

Not sure which crane box we tried, but results identical to those from the ICE.

have tried swapping the trigger wires and car ran horribly, but I will try the swap again.

I have tried three different lights now, cap looks very clean and sound.

I think next stop is a full scope / tester run to validate cross firing. etc. Extraordinarily frustrating, as when the car comes onto all 12, it has never run better. So close, but so far.

Thanks
Scott


Quote:
Originally Posted by alhbln
If only the Ice Box was changed, then the difference could be falling/rising trigger signal type, spark voltage, spark energy and a possible wrong wiring on reinstallation.

The Ice box is a dwell controlled transistor ignition, so the maximum voltage at the spark plugs is below 30KV. The Crane Hi-6 (is that the one you were using?) however delivers up to 40-45KV, so sparks jumping to the wrong post is much more likely here. If you do have an issue with the rotor phasing (position to pickup relative to finger position to spark wire terminal) the Crane should have made it much worse. Did it?

If you are sure you haven't touched anything else then i tend to still cling to my inverted trigger signal type theory for now.

Some random thoughts
- Make sure that the distributor cap's inside is clean and shows no cracks or fissures
- Try another timing light to be sure of the results you see
- Cross firing can be easily shown with a engine tester (Pico, Sun, Bosch) or a four channel scope with inductive pickups for the spark wires. Any modern workshop would have one, should not take longer than one hour to do this test. Clamp three or four pickups to the spark wires according to the firing sequence and you'll see what happens in an instant.

#16
Yesterday, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skl63
The plug leads are new and supplied custom made by ICE from the original samples. Interestingly, I jumpered in a Crane ignition module on Friday and the timing was identical the result with the ICE, so I now feel pretty confidant that the issue is related to the rotor offset and a problem of spark jumping to wrong post. But was has changed from the original ICE box?
If only the Ice Box was changed, then the difference could be falling/rising trigger signal type, spark voltage, spark energy and a possible wrong wiring on reinstallation.

The Ice box is a dwell controlled transistor ignition, so the maximum voltage at the spark plugs is below 30KV. The Crane Hi-6 (is that the one you were using?) however delivers up to 40-45KV, so sparks jumping to the wrong post is much more likely here. If you do have an issue with the rotor phasing (position to pickup relative to finger position to spark wire terminal) the Crane should have made it much worse. Did it?

If you are sure you haven't touched anything else then i tend to still cling to my inverted trigger signal type theory for now.

Some random thoughts
- Make sure that the distributor cap's inside is clean and shows no cracks or fissures
- Try another timing light to be sure of the results you see
- Cross firing can be easily shown with a engine tester (Pico, Sun, Bosch) or a four channel scope with inductive pickups for the spark wires. Any modern workshop would have one, should not take longer than one hour to do this test. Clamp three or four pickups to the spark wires according to the firing sequence and you'll see what happens in an instant.

#15
Yesterday, 05:58 PM
skl63
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No hole in my star!
Steve,

No hole in my "star". What is the purpose? I presume it is just to index the rotor relative to the camshaft. My dizzy has a threaded hole in the shaft to which the rotor is indexed with a small bolt. It can only go on in two positions, 180 deg apart. I think this alleviates the significance of the whole?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Magnusson
See pages 68-69 in your 365BB OM -- Figure 42 on page 69 shows the stock relationships of (narrow) rotor end-to-housing mark and "star" hole-to-upper flange hole that need to occur together when the engine is at the cyl #1 idle firing location:
Attached Images


#14
09-05-2010, 11:54 PM

Steve Magnusson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skl63
...Also, I am not familiar with hole in "star" wheel and plate that you speak of. Can you perhaps elaborate for me.
See pages 68-69 in your 365BB OM -- Figure 42 on page 69 shows the stock relationships of (narrow) rotor end-to-housing mark and "star" hole-to-upper flange hole that need to occur together when the engine is at the cyl #1 idle firing location:
Attached Images

Last edited by Steve Magnusson; 09-05-2010 at 11:57 PM.

#13
09-05-2010, 08:21 PM
skl63
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Steve,

I think you are close as it definitely feels like I am suffering switch over. I tried to move the star wheel, but it wont give up easily. perhaps some heat.

Not sure about cross talk as we seem only to get one spark and pretty consistent, but worth a try.

Also, I am not familiar with hole in "star" wheel and plate that you speak of. Can you perhaps elaborate for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Magnusson
It definitely can IF the relationship between rotor and cap is not right WHEN the spark occurs (i.e., with the rotor rigidly mounted to the shaft, its postion relative to the cap changes with advance). The setup in the OM figure (rotor end pointing at mark on rim and hole in the "star" wheel aligned with the hole in upper plate) is based on how the stock Dinoplex ECU works in conjunction with the pickup. No gaurantee that your new unit works the same -- i.e., IMO, it wouldn't hurt to try moving the "star" wheel a few degrees in either direction and see if this changes at what RPM the switchover occurs or if you can eliminate it.

A second point is that with the increased spark, you can get enouigh crosstalk in the (longer) spark plug wires to falsely trigger the timing light. On my TR, if I leave the wires in their stock looms (parallel and close together) and try to measure either #1 or #12, I get false flashes at the timing light. I have to remove the #1 or #12 spark plug wire from the loom holders (and let it droop down) so it's physically further away from it's neighbors to eliminate the false flashes -- just a thought...

#12
09-05-2010, 07:56 PM
skl63
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Michael at ICE assures me that the units are the same. I am using a 7 Amp. Interestingly, swapping the 2 wires on the pickup does effect the timing, but the signal is very unreliable in the other (wrong) configuration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alhbln
Are you sure that the exchange modul has the same trigger behaviour, e.g. fires on either a rising or falling level from the distributors pickup as the previous one. An inverted trigger input would lead to pretty much the symptoms you describe.

Ice ignition seems to offer both variants (rising and falling) for their 6 and 7 AMP ignition product, maybe you got the wrong one as replacement?

#11
09-05-2010, 07:53 PM
skl63
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Firstly, thanks for all the help everybody and please keep it coming. I need it.

The original equipment has not been on this car since I bought it, but when we first fitted the ICE, it completely transformed the car. In fact I would go as far as to say that it performed way better than when I purchased the car and in fact feels quicker than my Dad's 456. It really performed very well.

The plug leads are new and supplied custom made by ICE from the original samples. Interestingly, I jumpered in a Crane ignition module on Friday and the timing was identical the result with the ICE, so I now feel pretty confidant that the issue is related to the rotor offset and a problem of spark jumping to wrong post. But was has changed from the original ICE box?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PV Dirk
I concur on reinstalling the original equipment, then you can verify that everything is correct. If it's all good at that point and running perfectly you can try to reinstall your aftermarket carefully so see if there were any glitches in that new system. It could just be a bad unit, or doesn't work well with your vehicle. With that kind of spark jumping an inch, if there is too much resistance in one spark plug wire or a few somewhere, then the spark would tend to jump to the less resistence route. That would put you to checking all the plugs and wires for consistency.

#10
09-05-2010, 07:41 PM
skl63
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Thanks David,

I am using the far CW pickup, as original.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastradio
Most 365bb's have two distributor pick-ups; one which is used and the other is a spare. If you trigger your spark box off the spare unit, you'll end up in exactly the position you're in...The correct pick-up unit is the furthest one CW, when viewed from the rear.

David

#9
09-05-2010, 11:32 AM

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Most 365bb's have two distributor pick-ups; one which is used and the other is a spare. If you trigger your spark box off the spare unit, you'll end up in exactly the position you're in...The correct pick-up unit is the furthest one CW, when viewed from the rear.

David
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#8
09-05-2010, 01:29 AM
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Are you sure that the exchange modul has the same trigger behaviour, e.g. fires on either a rising or falling level from the distributors pickup as the previous one. An inverted trigger input would lead to pretty much the symptoms you describe.

Ice ignition seems to offer both variants (rising and falling) for their 6 and 7 AMP ignition product, maybe you got the wrong one as replacement?

#7
09-05-2010, 12:19 AM

Steve Magnusson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skl63
....I think that somehow the spark is going to the wrong post and as the advance comes in, it moves to a different post....
It definitely can IF the relationship between rotor and cap is not right WHEN the spark occurs (i.e., with the rotor rigidly mounted to the shaft, its postion relative to the cap changes with advance). The setup in the OM figure (rotor end pointing at mark on rim and hole in the "star" wheel aligned with the hole in upper plate) is based on how the stock Dinoplex ECU works in conjunction with the pickup. No gaurantee that your new unit works the same -- i.e., IMO, it wouldn't hurt to try moving the "star" wheel a few degrees in either direction and see if this changes at what RPM the switchover occurs or if you can eliminate it.

A second point is that with the increased spark, you can get enouigh crosstalk in the (longer) spark plug wires to falsely trigger the timing light. On my TR, if I leave the wires in their stock looms (parallel and close together) and try to measure either #1 or #12, I get false flashes at the timing light. I have to remove the #1 or #12 spark plug wire from the loom holders (and let it droop down) so it's physically further away from it's neighbors to eliminate the false flashes -- just a thought...

#6
09-04-2010, 09:46 PM
PV Dirk
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I concur on reinstalling the original equipment, then you can verify that everything is correct. If it's all good at that point and running perfectly you can try to reinstall your aftermarket carefully so see if there were any glitches in that new system. It could just be a bad unit, or doesn't work well with your vehicle. With that kind of spark jumping an inch, if there is too much resistance in one spark plug wire or a few somewhere, then the spark would tend to jump to the less resistence route. That would put you to checking all the plugs and wires for consistency.

#5
09-04-2010, 03:12 PM
skl63
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FBB,

Distributorless has been tempting me, especially electromotive and 2 x 6 coil packs, but fitting a crank angle sensor looks a bit tricky on a boxer. Not to mention the look of originality. What system would you use.

At least the Boxer doesn't have points and stuff, hence I dont really see reliability being an issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbillybob
Man I have not worded on a diz in 100 years. In my experience the aftermarket kits either did not work or did not work for very long. Robustness was lacking. IMO until you are ready to go distributorless and make a real conversion I would just go back to factory stock. It will run as intended and then you will know the aftermarket unit is just plain bad and spend alot less time putting lipstick on a pig. If the problem occurs in the factory set-up then your diagnosis is also done and you can start looking at all the common culprits which eventually banished the diz into obscurity.

#4
09-04-2010, 03:08 PM
skl63
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Yes Steve,

Everything else is factory inc. the "star" reluctor wheel. Coil has been upgraded as well. Interestingly the system will throw a spark about 1" no exaggeration, hence the possibility of jumping to wrong post. However the spark would normally take the shortest route.

I think that somehow the spark is going to the wrong post and as the advance comes in, it moves to a different post. My head just cant get across the geometry.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Magnusson
Does this mean that everything else is stock and the ONLY change is that the Aussie ICE unit replaces the Dinoplex unit -- i.e., you are still using the 12-point "star" trigger wheel and the stock pickup on the dist housing, and the advance is still handled by the mechanical system inside of the distributor?

Your symptom (the spark seeming to "change" posts depending on the RPM/advance) is indicative of the relationship between the cap and the rotor, when the firing event occurs, being out of whack (and it's a miracle it works on your model anyway with only 30 deg between posts ). Perhaps your new ICE unit has a different sensitivity and is firing when the 12-point star wheel is in a different position relative to the pick-up (i.e., it needs to be a different physical arrangement than that shown in the OM figure) -- but please describe the whole system more fully as that may not apply.

#3
09-04-2010, 12:49 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by skl63
...Car has single coil and single distributor...
Does this mean that everything else is stock and the ONLY change is that the Aussie ICE unit replaces the Dinoplex unit -- i.e., you are still using the 12-point "star" trigger wheel and the stock pickup on the dist housing, and the advance is still handled by the mechanical system inside of the distributor?

Your symptom (the spark seeming to "change" posts depending on the RPM/advance) is indicative of the relationship between the cap and the rotor, when the firing event occurs, being out of whack (and it's a miracle it works on your model anyway with only 30 deg between posts ). Perhaps your new ICE unit has a different sensitivity and is firing when the 12-point star wheel is in a different position relative to the pick-up (i.e., it needs to be a different physical arrangement than that shown in the OM figure) -- but please describe the whole system more fully as that may not apply.

#2
09-04-2010, 12:45 PM

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Man I have not worded on a diz in 100 years. In my experience the aftermarket kits either did not work or did not work for very long. Robustness was lacking. IMO until you are ready to go distributorless and make a real conversion I would just go back to factory stock. It will run as intended and then you will know the aftermarket unit is just plain bad and spend alot less time putting lipstick on a pig. If the problem occurs in the factory set-up then your diagnosis is also done and you can start looking at all the common culprits which eventually banished the diz into obscurity.
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#1
09-04-2010, 09:25 AM
skl63
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Boxer timing problem
I recently added a new ignition system to my BB365. It is an Australian made ICE Ignition system and is very small and very powerful. Original distributor is still fitted and in good condition.

Car has single coil and single distributor.

I recently timed the ignition and all three marks came up pretty much where expected, at idle, at 3300rpm and at 5500rpm.

However, after removing and refitting a faulty module the timing marks are all out by 30 degrees (30 deg to advanced). i.e I can sight the +38deg mark almost at idle.

So I am talking about 30 crankshaft degrees or 15 degrees at the camshaft or dizzy. This equates to half the distance between posts in the dizzy.

Strangely, the car runs ok, no hint of a ping etc. If I retard the timing, she runs badly or not at all. However, car runs on 10 or 11 untill about 3000 rpm and then really wakes up on all 12.

This is not as simple as it may sound. I have spent hours on this with dizzy out 5 or 6 times. My regular vintage ferrari mechanic has no answer, the designer of ICE ignition likewise. Finally I have spent 2 afternoons with a company that specialise in distributor rebuilds and ignition systems and they too are scratching there heads. Four mechanics, no answer.


It seems to me that perhaps the spark is jumping to the wrong post in dist cap, and as the advance kicks in, the spark jumps to correct post. But how to correct?

For instant guru status, what is going on here.