The 430 Scud and the 458 are very different cars. I love them both and struggled over this exact question. I now drive my 458 a lot more than the Scuderia. It is just "easier" to put miles on and I take advantage of that way more often with the 458. So, if you want a car that you can use more often, but still have a crazy thrill ride, get the 458.
I think the hype and the outstanding performance of the Mclaren is great, and I have a 458. Mclaren went for gold with a staggering amount of devotion and effort and I can do nothing but admire them and wish for their success. All the comparative nitpicking about looks and exhaust notes are fine, because that is what comparators do, nitpick. And I think Ferrari will admire Mclaren also with no fears of a "spanking". Fears of a spanking came from other corners of the planet, namely from the Nissan GTR -- a real marvel at an unreal price. The Mclaren and 458 cost the same.
Quote" Statistics, numbers, charts and graphs are good for teenage boys who play with cars on playstations. They'll never own one so the actual car is meaningless. Only a driver of a 458 can appreciate what it means to be behind the wheel and why numbers are so very unimportant to the experience." Ummm, actually no that is completely wrong.... In the end any vehicle is a system controlled by physics--there is no magic "character or personality" involved to it. This is called "anthropomorphism". Now what is missed by most people who are not involved in the design and engineering of automobiles (And I am-In a way almost nobody on this chat site is.) is that all cars (including Ferrari) start out as a set of performance parameters. The whole car is "conceived" as a set of numbers up front. The thing is that these numbers are usually not the ones talked about in the general press. But it is these numbers (which describe dynamic behavior) that are really what we all like to call the character or personality of the car. Some of these parameters are things like: Total vehicle roll gradient Total lateral load transfer Wheel pan transmissibility Roll understeer/oversteer gradients Steering wheel gain Tire self aligning torque to steer angle to yaw Total yaw acceleration Yawing moment derivitives Yaw damping Roll camber Aligning torque deflection steer compliance Understeer/oversteer gradients, deg/g and on and on and on. And all of these characteristics are worked out or defined in the initial design phase of the car. And it is these things that create that "intangible" feel that we all seem to gush over as if it is something magical. Well it ain't---It is the result of a lot of vehicle benchmarking, analysis, testing and simulation work. In the end--this is what sets one car from another-in terms of how they feel. It is why a BMW has a certain steering feel-which is way different from a Corvette. So what a car designer (engineer) does is take and try to optimize these parameters or accentuate a certain subset of them to get a specific dynamic characteristic out of them. But you have problem--When you improve one set-you usually make another set worse. But what McLaren has done (and Ferrari has not) is to use some very clever technology and stability approaches that they can exploit due to that technology to make a car that is dynamically superior to other cars. Combine that with a chassis that is stiffer than the competition, a car whose mass is less (and nothing matters more than that!), a very powerful engine/gearbox combination and you get a package that is overall, superior than the competition. It is due to superior engineering and design. Now--I am not talking about looks-nor about the importance that looks play in buying a car like the 458/Macca. I fully acknowledge that styling is still the primary factor in a car purchase and that the Macca has not "wowed" the design world. But to say that numbers mean nothing to the experience is patently absurd--the numbers are the only thing you are "feeling" in that driving experience. You just don't ever think about that while you are driving the car. Oh--and regarding the racing heritage of Mclaren: Don't forget their time in Can Am, Indy, LeMans, etc. They may not have been racing as long as Ferrari-but they have a very impressive record. (On a % basis a better average of wins to attempts than Ferrari)
Don't quite agree with you on this one. I'll take a 458 over a scud anyday. And personally I'll take the mp4-12c over the scud too.
Look, there was only one reason this thread was started and that was to antagonize 458 owners and try to make them excuse and apologise for their cars. Well, there is no reason to apologize. The 458 is a terrific car. Plain, flat, and simple. No excuses needed.
Ferrari has best win record in F1 but not best win/loss ratio. I am not a Brit. I am not bashing the 458--Just saying that the Macca is a better performing car and that Ferrari needs to raise it's game. The Macca is nothing but good for Ferrari in that it will force them to work harder on their next car. Ferrari doesn't owe anybody anything-but they are not gods--they do make mistakes and they don't have the market cornered on great, involving cars. I have worked with Ferrari, and Porsche, and Aston Martin, and Williams Grand Prix Engineering, and Audi Sport, and, and, and.... I don't need to troll. So far I have given rational reasons for what I have said--I own a couple of Ferrari and love them-but I am not a myrmidon and I haven't personally attacked anyone here-which is more than I can say about other individuals here. Typically when a person attacks the individual and not the substance of what he is discussing-then that person isn't-how shall we say this--they don't have the capacity to carry on an intelligent discussion. Truly sad....
There's already 70 odd pages of Mc vs 458 opinions going on in this thread: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=286858&page=70 I'm pretty sure it's all been said already there. But, remember who you're talking to... other owners. It's one thing to start a conversation and another to try to prick them under the skin to get a response. That is truly sad.
Well ******** just shoot me because I didn't know that there was another thread in the multiple thousands on f-chat!! You are a true -******!!
Exactly, personally I have to agree with others, the Mac is subjectively not the best looking car on the road and seeing as supercars should have a wow factor it misses the mark for me. Are Ferrari worried, I highly doubt it because despite being in the same market the character of the cars appears to be rather different. Do I feel another epic 60+ page thread......
Thanks! No, seriously... the original title of this thread is really antagonistic. Excuse us for misinterpreting it but there were a thousand better ways to bring up your point. Oh, BTW: You've been owned. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Yes I should feed you but this above part is rubbish in my opinion, are you seriously telling me that the avg person can feel a 0.1 second difference from 0-60 mph.... Number mean nothing, the driving experience however does, the sound of the engine the handling, none of these are pure objective things they are all subjective.
ferrari are smart. they dont have time to worry about this. they are looking towards the future. the next new thing are hybrid drive supercars.
The mClaren is probably a very quick car indeed. Now reality sets in: objectively; Would you buy a car from a car company that really is not one? Would you buy a car from a company that has never built an engine in it's history? Would you buy a car from a company that does not have a dealer network? Subjectively: Would you buy a car with an interior that has such little style? Would you buy a car that is THAT ugly and that tries to look like a 360 bit has gone desperately wrong? Would you buy a car from Ron Dennis? If the answer is yes, then get off this chat forum and enjoy your "car"
IMP, I'm sure the owners and lucky drivers of many GTO's, 166 MM, 250 TR that comparatively speaking have very low numbers might think a bit differently. I hate to tell you this but as the owner of a lowly (in your eyes probably) 79 308 GTB carb car, I understand true driver involvement and it isn't about pure numbers in any way. It's one of the most driver involved cars I've ever been in. WOW, I am so impressed by your credentials it's scary. We should all bow to your infinate wisdom and engineering brilliance. LOL- Try having a little bit of Soul.
Brian, I think what started you off on poor footing in here is to suggest that you could own a 458 in 6-8 weeks. Not only pompous but also untrue. So, don't leave dangling BS out there to attempt to support some point which I don't understand (suggesting that, since you can get one of these in 6 weeks, that the car must be crap?). As an owner of many ferraris, including a 458, who is also considering the purchase of a McLaren, I understand your point that maybe ferrari needs to try harder. While I agree they do need to try harder, that shouldn't suggest that they didn't try real hard and illustrate that attempt with the 458. I bet if you took a more even-keeled approach with your words, you wouldn't have received such fury back
Is that the best argument that you can come up with? You are drinking some serious Rosso Corso koolaid!
Actually, it's a pretty good argument. Driving ANY car has little to do with numbers and a lot to do with the experience. The only ones impressed with numbers are people who probably never will own one. Ask any classic car owner. I think you own (or have owned) and NSX. I've driven one and it's a really fine machine. The fact that most modern sports cars are faster means little to any NSX owner I assume. If speed were the only factor in wanting a car, every car made prior to 2011 would be disliked by their owners.
