I have no problem with the spoiler rule and my thread was a legitimate mistake, not an act of defiance. I made a mistake, broke the rule and I apologize for it. The timing was also it seems more of an issue than the actual title so clearly it was a misunderstanding.... However, I think the whole banning thing was just plain stupid and should be something that is done to people that are probably not Ferrari owners/enthusiasts and log on here as hooligans who make trouble, not someone who is a paid subscriber with 1000+ posts. A simple written emailed reprimand would have been enough and just as effective.
Definitely with you on that one... if that is any consolation . And I say that because fair or not, you're not likely to get an apology from anybody. Forums are no different than being a guest at a stranger's house: If you don't like it, leave. Some forums, like this one, are basically the only ones worth reading, so most folks just put up with crap like that every once in a while. Just pretend you're still living in your parents' house, and it becomes easier < he he>. Welcome back.
I'm not expecting an apology. Even if you can clearly demonstrate to someone that they're in the wrong, most human beings have far too much pride to admit they made a mistake and say I'm sorry. Luckily, some of us were better educated than others and have the ability to do exactly that. It's not worth lashing out at those that did not benefit from the same level of education growing up because it isn't their fault.
funny how the ones that make a "mistake" with odds of 1:365 with an OBVIOUS spoiler title to everyone but my 6 year old also end up making the most stink and drama after the ban. Look how many posts of double talk lashing out at moderators, but saying I made a "mistake" by treedee3d. 0.1% of the users cause 99.9% of the problems.
Rob, I'm confused by this last post....I apologized for the confusing title of the thread and even you said a 1 day ban would have been sufficient. Are you considering this thread "trouble"? I think this thread and most of the posts in it have been, in majority, respectful, honest, polite and constructive. The "banning" element is part of the way your site functions and part of the rules and the functioning of the site, should we not be allowed to discuss it? Should we censor our opinion for fear of hurting a poor moderator's feelings? If anything, this thread can be helpful in making sure others don't make the same mistake I did (which I've owned up to and apologized for). However, it seems like the mod and the site aren't held to the same standard. If most of the users and yourself are of the same opinion that the banning was harsh and could have been handled better, why can't all of us users, yourself and the mod have an intelligent discussion about it in order to improve for the future. Are you saying I'm part of the 0.1% causing 99% of the trouble? If so, I'm offended. If this is an opinion forum where users are allowed to express themselves freely (as long as rules are followed of course), why is an intelligent discussion considered "stink and drama"??? If you want me to stop talking about it, you can just ask and I will abide by your wishes but saying that I am causing "trouble" by posting an opinion in an opinion forum is a little weird. You should also feel flattered that the users get worked up about being banned from your site because it means they love it so much. I'm here to contribute, answer questions and get my questions answered, not to cause "trouble". I hope you see that.....
We've spent just as many days discussing the ban as the duration of the ban itself - this is nuts. You are now aware of the "no spoiler" rules, which are detailed here in the sticky thread that has existed since 2004: Racing & Tracking > F1 > Do NOT post race results in subject lines And the ban was clearly explained by Tillman in post #35: Had I found your thread title first, I too would have handled it in the same way so it's not as if the standards applied by Tillman are uneven here in comparison to other F1 moderators. I really don't know what else there is to talk about. All the best, Andrew.
I believe Rob's post was his way of saying that he doesn't believe your explanation that it was coincidentally a spoiler title, so he doesn't believe you've actually manned up and apologized either. In addition to your title "How many titles lost by Ferrari at the last race?", which taken in the context of someone who is only skimming headlines, would leave a reader to believe you meant the most recent race, regardless of what you intended; we also have the contents of your first post: So you certainly were talking about many last races over many seasons. However, it's also clear that you revealed that Alonso (and Ferrari) lost this most recent last race and so the idea to create the thread was initiated by the knowledge of Alonso's most recent and *second* loss to Vettel in this recent last race which is a clear spoiler in your post contents. As the title taken without reading the contents (the main page thread index) would be read by most as referring to the most recent last race; or the title taken with a reading of the contents clearly conveys that Alonso/Ferrari lost the most recent last race while it discusses many last races; it appears disingenuous to claim that it was coincidental that you posted your question at the time of the last race results, when both readings effectively result in disclosure of recent race results to other users. As far as ban versus warning, we do both; depending on the mod and depending on the circumstances. Rob has said he would have gone with a 1-day ban, so there's no reason to argue about ban vs warning in this case. Finally, we have the duration question. Duration is at the discretion of the mod. The normal ban for nominal offenses is 1 day, but we think of anything in the range of 1-3 days as minor; when we just want to get someone's attention and let them know we're serious. It's only when we feel something needs to be punitive, then we starting talking 1 week or more. Tillman has said he considered the disclosure was a season spoiler, not just a race spoiler. Given that he felt that, then a duration greater than 1 day could be appropriate.
1-Ok, I agree it was a spoiler, I've apologized for it and it was unintentional. That argument has been settled like 4 pages ago so there is no need to keep bringing it up, we can all agree. 2-I appreciate the explanation and process regarding banning and, yes, 3 days is a minor amount of time. However, I still disagree with how it's done and I still think it's a childish approach and a warning for a "first time" offense is more appropriate. 3-The thread has veered toward a more constructive discussion regarding how to make the site different so it can accomodate those who want to discuss the race right away vs protecting those who haven't. I have made a suggestion where the latest thread in the F1 section would not be visible from the start page which is I think a good solution. Rather than adressing the suggestion, Rob and the mods only post things like: you deserved the ban or you posted a spoiler or you're causing a stink or we were right in banning you, etc... It makes me sad that you keep throwing the blame at me when I'm trying to have a constructive intelligent polite discussion. The thread has moved to oranges and you guys are still debating apples...why? You guys are so on the defensive in all your answers when no one is attacking you. Sure you got criticized by me and others for the ban but it doesn't mean we're at war...we're all on the same side here still guys and we enjoy Fchat and the brotherhood. You don't have to be so sensitive.
Not sensitive, just trying to explain things a different way to someone who doesn't seem to quite get the message. As an example, you haven't really moved on to oranges because you're still arguing the above. Your proposal probably sounds reasonable from your point of view, as it puts the burden on someone else to change. The reality is that there are always a few dozen site change proposals that are on the table, some of these have been pending for years and still haven't gotten done. I would consider most of the pending proposals higher priority than yours. Your particular proposal may also require custom coding of the vBulletin software which then has to be tested and re-integrated every time there's a vBulletin update. In the meantime, as explained to you, the site has used the existing rule for 8-10 years and has gotten along pretty well except for a few incidents a season. So the tradeoff is the deferral of other priorities and adding a new maintenance burden or requesting that new users observe a longstanding rule that most users seem able to follow.
I have definetly moved on and I get it....broke rule, got banned...I get it...just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they don't get it. It just means they think differently and respectfully disagree, that's all. Those are apples. Now, as I've been talking about oranges for a while which is the way the site functions, I made some intelligent suggestions which have been left out of all Rob's answers as well as the mods (who still seem stuck on justifying the banning and talk about apples) Thank you, that's the first time the question about the site has been answered and I appreciate it. It makes total sense and I get it.
I'm not a hypocrit. I made a mistake, got banned, tought the punishment was harsch and I expressed it in a thread, period. Some agree, some disagree, some have brought up changing the spoiler rule and we're talking about it like mature adults yet some feel it necessary to attack me when it's not necessary, we should all be on the same team.
I also noted the incongruity of criticisms for being defensive/sensitive, while also calling for a constructive dialog, but chose to ignore it. However, this point having been highlighted anyway, I do want to clarify something. The mods are not a monolithic, "mods against the world" group. We all started as users and, I think, try to take actions with that background in mind. We often discuss moderation actions pre- and post-facto, sometimes with strong disagreement, between ourselves. If there is disagreement, you will never ever see a mod publicly say they support an action when they actually disagree with it. Rather we work within our own forum, in order to reach a consensus on outcome change or even rule changes or possible new rules. However, if we do agree with an action, there's generally no cause for that discussion to get started. In that event, we may, at our discretion, choose to publicly post support on a public discussion thread regarding an action, if it seems appropriate. So when you see us post our opinion one after the other, that it was an appropriate action or we would have done the same, it shouldn't be viewed as enforced group-think or circling the wagons, but rather each independent mod, having reviewed the facts in evidence, voluntarily stating they would have reached the same outcome. If nothing else, it speaks to a consistency of moderation that we do strive to achieve.
Thank you for taking the time to write that...I still disagree with banning for a first offense without a warning but I still appreciate the work you guys do and can certainly comprehend that it can't be easy and it's nearly impossible to please everyone. Ferrarichat is the greatest place online for us Ferrari owners so surely the work you do can't be all bad.... Anyway, I wish you would have chimed in earlier. Your responses made the most sense and made me feel, as a paying customer, that you actually cared about what I had to say even if we disagree. This will be my last post and I'm ready to move on if everyone else is...And we can all go back to being friends again. Being the "bad boy" who got banned was not a role I'm comfortable with since I usually am the type of person who gets along with pretty much everyone.
To be banned or not to be banned? That is the question. To err is human, to forgive divine. Pax Vobiscum.
My specialized but limited form of prescience enables me to see the results of the 2nd and 4th races of the 2013 season only. Shall I post?
OK, in addition to Yin's comments, let me directly address that point. Each and every race, there's a live race thread that goes up to discuss everything in real time: Racing & Tracking > F1 > F1 GRANDE PRÊMIO PETROBRAS DO BRASIL 2012: FINAL RACE *** SPOILERS *** Racing & Tracking > F1 > **SPOILERS** 2012 F1 UNITED STATES GRAND PRIX Racing & Tracking > F1 > Page Abu Dhabi GP ***SPOILERS*** Racing & Tracking > F1 > 2012 F1 AIRTEL INDIAN GRAND PRIX: RACE *** SPOILERS *** etc... The title of each race is accompanied by the *** SPOILERS *** warning to enable people to open it if they choose, or not have it spoil the race result by appearing in the New Posts searches. Common sense should suggest that those threads would also be the appropriate venue for discussing the outcome of a race in the hours and days immediately following it. Furthermore, there are similar dedicated threads for qualifying and for free practice if you wish to comment upon those sessions. For discussing the results of championships, people have found similar ways to dissect the outcome in a timely fashion without ruining the race/championship result for those who have not yet caught it: Racing & Tracking > F1 > Congratulations to the World Champion! *SPOILERS* You seem to be insisting (repeatedly) that it is supremely difficult for a reasonable person to partake in the debate without running the risk of a ban, and the reality is that this assertion just isn't so. The current system is already as accommodating as it can be and a systemic change (which, as aforementioned, would be technically very difficult to implement) is not actually required. All the best, Andrew.
I wasn't insistently repeating anything...I was trying to make a suggestion where you wouldn't see the latest thread right off the index page. This way, users could post titles in the spoilers all they want, whenever they want and mods wouldn't have to police it so closely. It seemed like a good idea to me and also others who hated the spoiler rule. I kept bringing it up because no one would adress it in their replies choosing instead to make comments like: the rule has been there for x amount of years, why not follow it? OR why do you cause a stink? OR why don't you get it? Finally, after all that sillyness, I was able to get the answer that, technologically, it was difficult. It took a while but yilsin provided the answer and we've hopefully moved on. No need to repeat that the word "spoiler" has to be in the title....
