David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

How would it be misrepresentation or a lie?

Both cars would have used the same suspension components, steering rack, uprights, engine internals, gearbox internals, clocks, steering column, the list is huge.

The manufacturers in period regularly mixed and matched components in between their racing cars, look at the discussion regarding which actual car was used at Le mans, so whats the difference? A car thats starts the season is rarely the same one that finishes it.

When they later sell these cars do they list everything that was swapped, changed,, repaired, recycled, of course they don't, its not misrepresentation at all. The buyer is buying a car to a specification, if the car is not to that specification then yes thats misrepresentation .

 

Now you're being just a tad disingenuous.

 

If 0900 was for sale, would it be fair to regard the car as a Ferrari P4 or a Piper P4, and how would Ferrari respond if asked to clarify what 0900 was?

Genuine question.

 

Piper P4 no question, Ferrari did not build it, or generally sell components in order for others to do so, other than when they sold off the project as a package at the end of its factory racing life.

I am honestly not trying to incite arguments, purely healthy open debate, there are no right or wrong answers, just varying shades of grey.

 

I agree with you that "continuation" seems like the correct label for it. There may be other labels that are also appropriate, but IMO, the term "replica" is not a viable candidate.

I think you confused the discussion a bit by bringing up the hypothetical mixed up parts example -- your non-hypothetical questions/comments (the ones I quoted) are the points that seem deserving of an answer.

 

Doesn't continuation imply an involvement, at least in the form of a sanction, by the original manufacturer?

 

Replica P4 "0900" is very different than the only real P4 (0856). What you're saying is totally absurd. You can see the difference from 15 feet away. The idea that if broken down they would be interchangeable is silly. Have you ever seen either one/both? Let's start with the interior. Look the same to you? How about the engine? One's P4 one's 350 Can Am. Think parts of either are interchangeable? As for racing in period there's a huge difference from the racing 0856 did in 1967 and the latter racing "0900" did.

 

If sold "0900" I think it would be broken down and it's body would wind up on 350 Can Am 0860. It's 350 Can Am engine would be used as a spare as would it's gearbox. The rest would become spares. It's worth more dead than alive to the owner of 0860.

It's a cool replica no more no less.

 

It will reach the market sooner or later, David Piper is no spring chicken or his wife. Whether thats when he is around though still is another matter, I don't think he needs the money any time soon.

The market at that point will determine what the car is, and set a fair price for it then.

Jim's suggestion above proves the validity of its various P4 etc original ferrari components.

I personally don't think it would be broken up as it has its own unique provenance which adds value to the whole, which would be lost is just used as a parts donor. Then again the owners of these cars don't need to pay market price, they will pay whatever it takes to own them, and if 0900 provides a stockpile of unique parts to a current P4 owner then its a valuable, possibly priceless to them item to have alongside an original

 

It makes no sense at all to break up 0900 unless theres a deal with 0858 or 0860's current owner, so that its body can be reunited with a genuine P4. Personally I see 0900 as an in period replica....Id guess worth maybe 10-20% of a real P4.

 

If Enzo Ferrari sanctioned the making of P4 (tipo 603) chassis #0900 by Vaccari & Bosi for David Piper then it is NOT a replica and is a genuine Ferrari P4. Has there been an accurate account of the facts and circumstances of the car's creation written or a video explaining it?

 

0858 is quoted as between a 15 to 25 million dollar car, so you are suggesting 0900 is worth anywhere between 1.5 to 5 million dollars in comparison?

 

Here's a video of David Piper with 0900 and a good interview from 1981(?) in Sweden.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YRvsOuodiw&feature=c4-overview&list=UUsBdXQYEJJoJypSI60IyMPQ]Race with Ferrari P2, P4, 512S, Daytona Grp4, Lola, McLaren, Lotus 23B - YouTube[/ame]

 

Enzo Ferrari did sanction the making of the P4 chassis and gave him chassis number 0900 according to David Piper, recorded on video. Ferrari works driver and race engineer Mike Parkes oversaw its production.

 

Imagine if McQueen oversaw its production!

 

It is misrepresentation as its a matter of law. This has been covered a million times and its pretty clear in most cases. In the case of Ferrari, the CHASSIS is the car and it must have the serial number attached. Many cases of various cars have been through the legal process of who owns "the car". Parts do not make the car, the chassis does, thats what gets taxed and what a DMW or governing body looks at. Other cars might have a different part that makes "the car" where a VIN tag is located but its pretty simple.

If a chassis is in need of repair or replacement than it would need to be documented.

If that was not the case them people would take a car, cut it into maybe 10 equal parts, rebuild all the cars around the "original" parts and have 10 cars with the same serial number.

Thats a little misrepresentation I would think.

Come on, really, are you kidding? It would be anarchy.

Now Pipers 0900 is what it is. Its a replica with genuine parts. A continuation like what Shelby did (correct me if I'm wrong) would be to have either the chassis' made at the time the cars were being made, but never assembled or made from the factory with new old stock parts. I guess the factory could make new parts assembled in the same fashion but none of this really matters.

Pipers car is a replica but I don't think that will make too much difference when it finally hits the market as its a car that does have its own history. Its clearly noteworthy.

 

Actually there are right answers as based on what the court of law has said about it. And it has been decided. There are several important race cars other than Ferraris that have had several owners of various parts claim ownership. Different judgements have been decided but where there is a chassis and legal ownership of it thats what was considered the car, at least the ones I have read about. Look them up online. Lots of info out there.

 

I agree. I also would think it needs more than just a "OK you can build one in your garage" for it to be a continuation.

Its a replica built using genuine parts. Perhaps the most closest to the real thing replica you can get but its not a true P4.

 

We've seen other manufactures license continuations. These have more cred than a Ned (or david) in a shed creation but aren't the real thing.

 

#0900's chassis was not made in period it was made after the other P4 racing days were over.

Also I could fairly easily obtain period parts for a Ford GT40 so your points don't hold weight IMO.

There is only one point that makes #0900 a little more interesting than other replicas and that is the factory sanctioning it, but it's strange that the chassis number is not unique?? So is this an urban legend that Ferrari did actually sanction Pipers car?
Pete

 

Lets be clear here and remind everybody that Piper had #0900's chassis made, not Ferrari.

I believe the mechanical components are from the spares that #0858 had in its racing days. I remember reading David McKay's book and he was amazed at how many spares came with the car when it was delivered.
Pete

 

A replica is something that is made by anybody and looks like the real thing. You or I can make a replica.

The chassis of Piper's car is much more than a replica, even a period one. It should properly be referred to a an "authorized continuation" that was sanctioned by Enzo and was built to Ferrari supplied blueprints. While that's not exactly a Ferrari, it isn't a Ferrari chassis only because the chassis never passed through Ferrari's hands and got a number stamped on it.

Ferrari didn't make the chassis for any of these cars. They were made by an outside supplier to blueprints supplied by Ferrari. As with any outside vendors these prints were held as proprietary to Ferrari, and even though the supplier had the prints, you couldn't go to that supplier and ask them to make you a P4 chassis, they would rightly say "we will gladly make you a chassis, simply give us YOUR prints".

By giving Piper a set of prints and permission to make a chassis to those prints the car is not a "replica" of anything. It is an authorized continuation of the series and that is a very different thing than a "replica".

Add to the fact that much of the car contains actual spares from the period and you have a very different thing than replica.

As Jim has noted there are a number of differences between 0900 and a P4. As lessons were learned and the car evolved over more than 50 years of continuous racing, there are bound to be changes, and I am sure that Piper didn't feel obligated at the time the car was built to make each and every part of the car "exactly" like it was on the P4's.

That wasn't germane to his purpose of building the fastest race car that he could at the time and it isn't really important.

0900 is what it is, a continuation car, built using factory prints for the chassis, factory body parts, and spare parts and pieces from the factory cars. It's not a P4 and never really was, and it evolved further from a P4 as it was raced, even in period, and that's fine with me too. Things like wider rear track. different engine, and flared rear fenders and a different interior are unique to 0900, so who cares. the car is 0900, not a P4.

But it's also not a replica of anything, and never was, and I'd take it in a heartbeat and enjoy it every minute for exactly what it is.

 

You have summed up in relatively succinct fashion 2,946 disputatious posts in a narrative with which I am thoroughly comfortable. I'd take I in a heartbeat as well, whatever it's called!

 

interesting title for a unique situation.I like it and agree with your definition and how it applies to 0900. As 0900 was the only number that I know of that was given by E.F. to D.P the other two chassis 0901/0902 or 0900a/0900b how ever you call them would not apply. I wonder if anywhere there is another chassis of any maker that could qualify. mmmmm! Let's see who responds to this. tongascrew

 

LOL!

This is a perfect summation IMO

I will make a standing offer of $1.5m for it (and I will thow in my Ed Hardy mousepad). Hit me via PM David.