Thrashing a breadvan

No need for bad feelings and insults, we know where this is coming from.
Those cars, whether the breadvan or any SWB comp as well as the Glaesel Cobra Daytona or the video I have of Emmanuelle Pirro over passing all of us with a GT40 at Le Mans Classic (as if we were parked on the side of the road, Noblet in his GTB and me in the LM) , all those cars have much more power than in period.
I am pretty sure the breadvan has somewhere between 320 and 350 hp. And GT40 have more than 500 etc.
So driving them looks like driving a Rallye car on ice , sliding the car one way and then opposite lock and permanent adjustment. Those who raced on ice know what I mean. Thanks to Roeloofs the Daytona comp has 480 hp at the bench...well you don't drive this the same way than in 1975 Le Mans.
Another issue are the tires, tire grip on radials and quasi slicks are very different and more brutal than most of the fifties early sixties tire which allowed progressive sliding.
So yes it is more brutal, but with so much power it is actually efficient ( read fast) even if it has little to do with the way cars were driven in period. But then, whatever Ferrari said, most SWB comp had in reality 260 hp at the bench, the street SWB had 240 etc etc.

 

I think this is the outing at Spa that you are thinking of....note how smooth those old drivers were...
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143011579-post73.html

 

When we watch a race or practice from the spectators point of view, Moss, etc. look very smooth but inside the cockpit it would have looked as per this breadvan lap. I was actually impressed with how respecting of an old car Max was. That was not abusing a car at all.

I've also seen video footage of Fangio driving from the cockpit and he works the heck out of the steering wheel to provide that "from the side of the track" smooth appearance.

And note I don't approve of modern historic racing with the current win at all costs attitude but I would happily allow Max to drive my little Alfa 1750 GTV.
Pete

 

Actually if you go to her blog mealsandwheels.com you can see the video of her driving. I know she was slightly slower than Max W but her style is actually very soft and classic, and it is interesting to compare the 2 driving style on one lap at the ring as Max is taking over after the pit stop during the race they actually won.

Incidentally, for those who will attend, the Breadvan is entered at Tour Auto in 2 weeks.

 

Frankly, I'm surprised he wasn't working harder at that pace. I am working the wheel that hard in my more modern Corvette Z06 on modern R-comp tires at the track - sliding around just as much. I'm sawing at the wheel just driving spiritedly on back roads in my Austin Healey 3000, but she runs original Dunlop Road Speeds...

 

Having reread the thread, I come to the conclusion, that my first post, defending Max Werner`s driving skills might have possibly been misunderstood. At no point have I questioned your knowledge of the Breadvan, or have I intended to do so. I´d be in no position to do so, due to lack of knowledge. If my post came across that way, I do sincerely apologize. What I did in fact question, is your knowledge of racing, due to your perception of and commenting on Max´s driving in the video.

If I wasn´t the person mentioned above, then all the better...

btw... i´d put the Breadvans current power much closer to or even above the 400hp mark. No "historic" E-type that stands a chance has under 360hp, actually closer to 380hp. Not wanting to get off subject, but the extreme tuning of historic vehicles with modern technologies is destroying historic racing in the long run! (in my opinion, of course)

 

Now this is an interesting one. I think I have rebuilt ( as a customer!) more 250 and 275 engines than most, and I have never seen a 250 engine with more than 280 real hp ( unless doing engines that can run only 12 hours).
Can anyone tell us if there are real 3 L Ferrari engines for SWB or GTO with more than 320 and even close to 400?
carobu and Roelofs rebuild 365 engines with 480 hp but those are much larger engines.
So what is the experience around?
Btw I can ask Breadvan owner, he will be at tour Auto week after next!

 

I'll also try to contact either Max or the owner of the shop taking care of the car to verify my opinion... Succes at the Tour Auto and enjoy!!!


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Btw... I had the engine of my (ex-) 250 GTL done at Modena Motorsport some years back to SWB specs and it dynoed at 273hp. So generally your comments are spot on. But considering the hp of the Jaguars, I very much believe that the Breadvan hp must be up there somewhere as well...


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Agree, but it the focus on winning that is what is driving this.

IMO if you want to win this bad, fnck off from historic racing and go and race in a modern racing series.
Pete

 

After dabbling in historic racing from Maserati 200/300S to Lola T70 to Sauber C5 in events from the FHC to LMC for more than a dozen years I can only say: I wish I could race an historic car as fast AND smooth as Werner did in this qualifying lap. Iust my five cents...

Regards

Wolfi

 

Sure Fangio works the steering wheel. He is constantly correcting the action of the rear wheels to controle the drift. You can't see it but he is also adjusting the throttle at the same time.What you also see is that Fangio,Moss etc always have both hands in the wheel near to the three/nine o'clock position. Finally there is little or no evidence of rear wheel spin which inhibits acceleration out of the corner. As Fangio said commenting on his great win at the Nurburgring in 1957 he often neglected one last down shift approaching corners to better control the drift, eliminating excessive wheel spin and saving tire ware when accelerating.Watch the top F1 drivers today. Though the four wheel drift and paddle clutchless shifting replacing the stick and the clutch pedal are a thing of the past much of their driving technique isn't that much different from the "old days" tongascrew

 

Forget those old cars; How's the boat?

 

Drifting!

 

Now you're talking; drifting the Breadvan…..! (back on thread too!)

 

But Fangio -in the famous video clip- made that on dry conditions. His technic on his epic drive at the `Ring in 1957 was also in dry conditions.

But if the track is only a little wet you can forget this technic.

Max Werner knows exactly what to do in the Breadvan (and in many other cars we all can dream about!) that belongs to his family....

 

The Breadvan yesterday at the Goodwood 72 Members Meeting
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The Moss Trophy was the best race at Goodwood this weekend with the giant killing little Lotus 11 "Breadvan" narrowly missing first place and lapping the bigger brother
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Very cool Lotus 11. I had never seen it before...

 

Why am I not surprised you not only found the clip, but also understand the edit! See you at LMC. Or in Paris

 

You are correct These HP estimates are greatly exaggerated. Sort of like Mr Wagner's driving. tongascrew

 

The pizza delivery boys
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See you at both if you are there.

 

Slightly off-topic, but I have to post my favorite vintage racing onboard clips. These serve to show the difference between a good amateur and a (retired) professional. Its the 250SWB Drogo and the first driver is Hugenholtz and he is quite capable and a good driver, but wait till Mr. Spin-and-Win...a.k.a Danny Sullivan takes over and its just different. He is simply something else and even his movements in the cockpit are more economical, though he is smaller, but you can just tell that he has made his living racing cars. In any case, my respect and admiration for those who are afforded the opportunity to race these cars.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II6LDvqok3Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II6LDvqok3Q

Here is the Danny Sullivan "Spin-and-Win" reference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7tuBeLL0wg