The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Fixed that for ya.

 

Since I considered following the P4 threads not fun anymore for a long time now I put Steve on my Ignore list which has by the way only one person on it. Now I just see the answers and reactions to his f***ing posts. Could you all please ignore this guy? Thank you.

 

Then why don't you pay the fee and ask him. You still refuse to answer my question and each time you post I will continue to ask it, why do you not believe it is 0846?

 

And once again, why do you believe it is not 0846 and instead is a replica. You still refuse to answer the question.

 

And it's going on and on and on... It makes me sick and tired. Could you just stop fighting this person? It's of no use!

 

Why should I pay the fee? It's Jim who will gain many millions of dollars by the authentication of his car by Mauro Forghieri. If the car was mine and I believed it was the original 0846 I would commission Forghieri or Massini for an official report.

The evidence in Jim's pdf is not convincing. Please tell the forum why you think it is the original 0846.

 

Why? Because you are the only one whom it would please. And I guess you really don't understand the gist of Jim and the car. The money don't matter, he's keeping it. And finally, when you tell the forum why you don't think it's 0846......

 

Well, there it is. Steve's official stance is that Jim's car "0846" is a replica of the original "0846".

Perhaps Steve has a "client" that wants to make an offer on Jim's "0846" and is just "chewing down" the perceived value?

 

There is no solid evidence that it is the original 0846. Please supply evidence that it is the original 0846. The only thing that the pdf convinces of is that the chassis can accommodate P3 and P4 type engines. That does not make it the original 0846. There is not even any evidence that 0846 P3/4 was ran with 2 sets of engine mountings as Jim's car has.

 

By the very nature that it accomodates both engines basically verifies it's 0846, it's the only P3/4 in existence. That was acknowedged by many to be so. I beleive the criticism of 0858 was the poor job converting it back to a P4, wrong body, wrong engine etc, etc...

Perry

 

FINALLY!!! The truth of your motivation comes out. Seems like a certain someone is a little sensitive.

The reason why the OVERWHELMING majority, not just Napolis, was AGAINST 0858 was due to it was the deconstruction of actual living history. Piper took that car and made it less then it was. In the end it was a less original car then what had survived and still is. Ferrari knows it's continuous history and clearly states that it will never be a P4.

0846 on the other hand is supported by the OVERWHELMING majority due to a car was reconstructed from what was thought to have been lost. Here original history has been preserved. If you were an enthusiast versus an opportunist with a vendetta you would be able to see the difference.

BTW even if Jim's car was not perfect, which due to the quality of his restoration is pretty close to perfection, it is worlds better then what Talacrest accomplished as is evident by the new owner rushing to re do it. If Jim were to sell 0846 the owner would be hard pressed to find one thing that needed repair. The quality, talent, and frankly expertise are WORLDS apart.

As far as expert testimony goes there now is Tom Meade who establishes continuous history as he has known the truth all along. He pulled the frame out of the scrapyard knowing what it was and what made it what it was. He then confirmed, from Napolis's research/pictures, that it was the same frame he pulled from the scrapyard and was indeed 0846.

What more do you need to know?

As far as Miura going to Jim's garage I'd have to guess he has a restraining order on him at this point, and let's be honest here, what help would that be? It's not like Miura would know what he's looking at or what to look for?

"What's not to like?"

 

LIKE!!

 

This thread is filled with evidence, you just fail to look at it due to it does not fit your one-sided desire.

Every single piece of evidence one desires in a court case is not always available so the rational people have to deduce a logical conclusion from what is available. And the conclusion by the overwhelming majority is that it is.

What their isn't is ANY evidence that it is not 0846.

As far as both engine mounts goes, Meade knew what he pulled from the junkyard due to the characteristics that it had. And those same characteristics are what he saw in Jim's report.

It is not fair for you to waste our time when you have no evidence to speak to the contrary. DO YOUR HOMEWORK and come up with some facts of how it is not or you are just being a pest due to your feelings got hurt over 0858.

You have NO CASE and are just an annoyance till then.

 

If the car was mine I'd just enjoy it and care not what the detractors think.

And that is exactly what Napolis is doing.

Guys like you don't matter. The sound of that motor does.

 

There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that the original P3/4 0846 was capable of accommodating both P3 and P4 engines by having both P3 and P4 engine mountings in the frame. Yes, it ran as a P3 and a P3 engine in 1966 and according to the SCHEDA TECNICA that Jim cites in his 0846 pdf in late 1966 the rear of the tubular frame was transformed with new P4 engine struts for the P4 engine it ran with from then on. It says nothing about the old P3 engine mountings being retained. IMO the P4 engine mountings, which are not in the optimum position at the central point of the meeting of tubes from different directions, compromises the rigidity of the chassis.

No way would Ferrari waste the newly designed tipo 237 P4 engine that was designed to work as a stressed member with a beefed up and ribbed block in a frame that had coordinately incorrect engine mountings for it to be utilised properly. The tubes that carried the engine mountings would have been replaced and only one set of engine mountings for the P4 engine would have remained in the chassis.

I'd go far as to say that the dual engine mountings in Jim's chassis may be proof that it is not the original 0846.

 

So here you are saying that either Vaccari and Bosi or Piper didn't know what they were doing when they converted the frame. Which party didn't know what they were doing in your opinion?

Seeing that you feel that Ferrari wouldn't waste the 237 this way one would have to deduce that you are saying that Pipe is no way an expert on how it should have been done.

 

As there is only hearsay in the 0846 pdf with no proof of who actually built or converted the frame I'm saying no such thing.

 

Where is there any evidence of Tom Meade reading Jim's report?

 

Ah, thinking about it, was it you that presented it to him when he told you he had no recollection whatsoever of 0846 ever passing through his hands but couldn't rule it out as a possibility?

 

I thought so.

 

Did Vaccari and Bosi not build the continuation P4 frames for Piper?

And quite frankly everything to you is hersay. No matter what is typed in this forum by whatever expert you will denounce it as hearsay. Unless it is typed in a letter and delivered to your door.

Funny how a piece of paper can change things.

Funny how Tom Meade's letter is not an expert opinion.

It is well known that Vaccari and Bosi built the frames for Piper and believe it was mentioned in Meade's letter. I also believe I can search through here and find posts by you that state they built them.

So who is not the expert on frame construction? you, Vaccari and Bosi thus Ferrari, or Piper?

Or are you saying that Napolis is a fraud?

Which is it?