The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

So NO then, he didn't.

 

Can I make it clear again please - the 1966 F1 engine originally in 24v form has projecting lug mountings; the 36v heads were fitted to the same blocks for the '66 Italian GP; the '67 central-exhaust 36v engine uses cross-bolted mountings; and the '67 heads were never raced on a '66 block or vice-versa.

So whatever that engine is, with cross-bolted mountings, and intakes between the cams, and side exhausts, AND vertical distributors ( which it had in Piper's time), it's not an F1 engine.

Paul M

 

The vertical distributors just bolt on to the heads. Whatever engine is in the car it's not a P4 engine as has been photographically proved recently.

 

Could you post the photos again? I recall Jim stating the engine (and gearbox, and chassis, and interior) was original 0846. Maybe we need a refresher comparison to show the differences between what was actually original and whats found on DP0003.

 

Paul,

I wonder if it is possible to take a 67 central exhaust F1 engine and swap the heads (ie. Put the left head on the right side of the block and visa versa).

This would mean you have gone from F1 layout to P3 or P4 layout.

I would bet a P4 36v head is exactly the same as a F1 head just that central exhaust made little sense for the prototypes.

So I think Jim's block is a 67 F1 block and either P4 or F1 36v heads.
Pete

 

See posts 8893 and 9038 in this thread.

 

Just to speed up the search.
Posts 8893
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/144843140-post8893.html

and 9038
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/144853327-post9038.html

 

Incredible work.

I tell you what... its impressive that this forum is so nice/civil. Any other car community would have had the torches and pitch forks out by now. Its great that there can be constructive criticism vs name calling and bashing etc...

 

What you've done is point out discrepancies with photographic evidence; without engine serial numbers, race build sheets and other factory records, the proof is by no means concrete.

Or we need to see photos of P4 engines taken in 1967 for each of the different chassis to be sure that there were no variations used in period.

When you look at the F1 engine the distributors are driven off the rear of the upper camshafts, while the P4's are driven off the lower camshafts. so can you just swap them from side to side? I don't know if the studs and bolts are located so as to make them interchangeable; but I do know that if you swapped over a pair of central-exhaust 36v heads to the opposite side, the word Ferrari embossed on each cam cover would be upside down........

See
Ferrari 312 s/n 0003 | Track Thoughts

Oddly, the 1966 F1 36v engine in the P5 prototype has (or had) horizontal distributors fitted to the lower camshafts, not the upper ones; but where is that engine?

Paul M

 

I also bet the cam covers are interchangeable. So swap heads and then swap cam covers so the word Ferrari is the right way up.

We know that Jims engine was 3 litres as he said so. We know the block deck height is not right for a P3 or P4 engine and we also know the bell housing bolts are as per an F1 engine AND and DP003 was sold with a F1 engine.

Of course I do not know if the heads can be swapped from side to side, but usually head studs are equidistant around the cylinder bores so it would only be the camshaft drive that could be an issue. If cams are in the same place/angle per inlet and exhaust then yep they can be swapped.

As for the distributors ... that could be fixed so simply it should not even be considered as an indicator.

And again the F1 and P4 engines are very much related so it would surprise me if P4 distributors would not bolt on to F1 heads. I am though surprised that Ferrari did not just run horizontal for all engines??? Over cautious re oil leaks I guess.
Pete

 

And even if the engine is some sort of special P4 engine unlike others that does not change the fact that the chassis is not IMO #0846.
Pete

 

When P3 0846 was converted to P3/P4 specification it got updated with P4 brake discs and calipers but did not get updated with the P4's adjustable braking bias. All 3 of the new P4s had an updated braking system with adjustable bias. In order to do this numerous changes were made such as the re-positioning of the brake and clutch master cylinders further back near the bulkhead, actuating levers were added for the adjustable bias which were not present on P3s and 412Ps and the chassis tube arrangement was changed to support these changes.

Glickenhaus DP0003 has the P4 braking system with adjustable bias, the same tube arrangement as P4, the actuating levers, supports and the same positioning of the master cylinders. You can see that DP0003 is very much the same as P4 0856 and P4 0858. This is additional proof that the front of the chassis was built to P4 plans in addition to the back.

The reason Glickenhaus DP0003 does not have any rivet holes in the tube discussed recently is because the aluminium sheet is not placed here on P4s as the brake actuating levers would be in the way so it couldn't be fitted. Also, all P3s including 0846 when a P3 and P3/P4 and 412Ps had a diagonal tube underneath the aluminium sheet. P4s do NOT have this diagonal tube and neither does DP0003. To the left of this diagonal tube from the centre is a tube that runs parallel with tubes at the front and back of it. Please see the picture of 412P 0854 which shows the diagonal tube. P4s do not have a tube here that runs parallel as it veers off at an angle. Please see the pics of 0858 which clearly shows this. DP0003 is the same as the P4s with this tube that veers off at an angle.

The real 0846 as pictured below at Le Mans 1967 was very different at the front to Glickenhaus DP0003. Although 0846 did get some P4 updates at the front such as the steering rack and support, radiator, brake discs/calipers etc, it was left as a P3 in the areas discussed above including the frame tubing but Glickenhaus DP0003 is as P4. Now who was it that said that David Piper didn't know the differences between a P3 and a P4 when he stated that DP0003 was built to P4 plans? Clearly somebody doesn't know the differences but that person is not David Piper.
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Surely the 2 master cylinders together are for the brakes and the other one that is by itself is for the clutch.

But yes there has been a redesign in this area that #0846 did not get.
Pete

 

Blown away. Excellent work.

 

I gotta ask... Steve.... How many hours do you have invested in this now?

 

And I'll tack on to this question and ask when you're going to let up? We get your point, you don't think it's 0846, in fact you're probably correct at this point even though I'm still pulling for Mr. G to pull off a win somehow.

You've just taken it so far beyond simply stating your case and providing info, it's like you have a personal vendetta. Every question by someone is met with a lengthy reply from you and multiple color photos with circles and arrows, etc. What's your deal man? Why the hell are you so personally invested in whether or not a grown man in a completely different part of the world that you've never met has a replica or the real deal?

It appears you and a couple others have literally driven away the ultimate car guy from this forum. What did you gain from that?

 

You must be late to this party. Steve has been vilified, as have some others, for daring to question the "great one's" claims. The peanut gallery has up until recently been quite vocal how there just has to be a way, any possible way, that this is 0846.

Go ask your hero about mis-information, dis-information, conjectures, half truths and threats when it comes to this topic. That is not to denigrate the other real cars that he has and how he has them see daylight. But this one is a different situation.

 

+1

 

+2

Jim resorted to name calling early...it's very understandable that Steve might respond a hair aggressively based on Jim's allegations. It has become very clear who stands on the high ground.

 

+3

 

I subscribed to this thread a long time ago, and I have to say it's been one of the most if not the most interesting Ferrari/or non Ferrari content thread.

It almost jumped the shark a while back and it's taken some ugly turns along the way, but Steve hung in there. KUDOS for that.

so +4 here.

 

This thread is now about letting the facts speak for themselves.

+5
Pete

 

Its the motoring version of "12 Angry Men"

 

Steve stood firm.

To many he could be considered an obsessive anorak.

But I fully understand his need to set out the facts. It's clearly a burning need and what came with it was vilification and downright abuse. The more he was kicked the more he needed to set his stall out and prove what 0846 ultimately is.

The bottom line is we are talking millions of dollars here. The market/scene has arrived at a place whereby if you own what's left of a chassis then quite rightly you own the ID of the car. Another one cannot turn up..

It gives you the "right" to own at least the identity of the thing.

Jim's chassis is not 0846. The front end analysis has proven it. Thus Ferrari 0846 P3/4 as we know it is a sensational doppleganger.

0846 is gone. Its chassis has been destroyed along with any claim to tag a box of parts to it.

Jim is a dude who has passion and more so the financial ability to play with these toys which mere ordinaries like us will never in a hundred lives enjoy the privilege of.

He has two options.

One, to hold this site in contempt.

Two, to return, accept the facts and get on with life as it's pretty damn short.

I think Fchat needs him because there's not many blokes with his sort of metal who gets down and dirty with the great unwashed!

 

Well...I have to say that I have criticised Steve strongly a few months back about his methodology and deductions, when this very thread was oriented towards what could, or could not, have happened to the original 0846 chassis, but everyone was speculating without any proof.
Since this discussion, the thread has taken a turning point towards what Mr J. car's actually is, not what might, or might not have happened forty years ago to the remains of the original 0486.

Whatever you might think about Steve's motivation, the fact is that he has gone to great lengths to analyse the different variations of those cars (original 0846 - a P3 converted to P4 vs others P4 vs Piper's "continuations P4") and to do this he had to post many pictures and illustrate the differences between the cars, which is the only way to prove, step by step, what the differences are, and which variant the actual car might indeed be.

He has done this very convincingly. Every detail is now here for everyone to see. As said by others, "The truth is in the metal". I have not posted in this thread for a while, but I still follow it with great attention and I do think that the serie of pictures posted by Steve during the last weeks, and painstakingly illustated by circles, annotations, etc...are indeed the most important pages of the whole thread, so Kudos to Steve for that.

And, to repeat myself: I would have liked Mr J.G's car to be 0846, I really would have liked this to be possible. But the serie of pictures posted above say otherwise.

Rgds