F430 F1 System Troubleshooting w/ Data & Graphs

This is great. I have the SAME symptoms and also own an x431. Please keep us updated on the outcome.

 

Awesome ..thanks for sharing and helping the community as it helps you .. ferrarichat at it's best

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Good find and a thought.....

If the CFC301 shows pressure incorrectly ie 66.5 bar displays as 665 bar and the CFC231 displays it correctly as 66.5bar. Could this be related to the way the software handles decimals?

If so has anyone with a CFC231 tried to enter a decimal PIS?
We know it doesn’t work but maybe it is CFC301’s only that has a problem.

Unlikely but I thought I’d ask. I could try mine but I wouldn’t be able to reset to 4.6 so only really want to do it if I have to or I’m about to take it in for service.

Edit: unlikely as I think they all display PIS values correctly.

 

In for info. Having ongoing ediff issues.... Manetino doesn't even work.... Need to read up on this launch option as I'm out of dealer network

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Any updates?

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I'm back for an update!

Serkan from GTE Engineering asked me to send him a number of key data points in different gears to help troubleshoot. I'll attach some images of the data I sent him. Unfortunately, without much incentive to work with me on the problem, Serkan went dark. I did not hear from him again.

Next, I spoke with an experienced Ferrari technician on the east coast. The advice I got was that the TCU could be the problem. This Ferrari tech gave me the impression that F430 TCUs go bad often and that he replaces them like a consumable. That seemed questionable to me. Nonetheless, I pulled my TCU from behind the passenger seat to get a picture of it.

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I called Daniel at Ricambi. Daniel confirmed what I was expecting. TCU replacements are, in his words, 'very uncommon'. Not only that, my TCU that you see above is not available to him through his supply chain.

At that point I decided I was done trying to further diagnose the problem. I called Cauley Ferrari and scheduled a service appointment. As per usual, this entails a 30+ day lead time and in my case the earliest availability was 48 days away. Ultimately, this means my next update will be the most interesting one, as I learn conclusively what causes this rapid F1 pump cycling.

Here's are the screenshots of the data I made for Serkan:

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Sorry to hear that you hit a wall .. it definitely will be interesting to hear what the final outcome will be
Thanks for the update

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Most unfortunate after all you have been through.!
I would be very surprised if this turns out to be a TCU based on your symptom....I guess time will tell.
I guess it is safe to say you did not explore the option for a possible Ediff valve as mentioned.?
Thank You for keeping us all posted.!
K//

 

I'm going to let you in on a little secret. The data you are collecting through this scan tool may not be accurate. The software in that tool is pirated. Much of the data is "flipped" such as gear engagement vs shift engagement.

TcU's do indeed fail, I have replaced 2 in with in the last month. Get this car on a real scan tool before spending unneeded money. Take it for what it worth..

 

I hear what you are saying but amazes me that Mac tools sells this to indies

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They don't know. They are just sellers of tools.

 

It would be great to a side by side with a SD or Leonardo and see what actually works or not .. curious and helping those that have it

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I think you’re possibly right, it just depends how they’ve opened the protection.
I’d also expect it to disappear from the market soon unless there is some licensing involved (highly unlikely)....

Anyone using it just needs to understand the limitations and view the data cautiously.
Eyeballing the data above, most of it looks accurate or at least in the ball park and it underlines the fact that the use of any tool needs an understanding of the F1 system.
Shift and engagement position isn’t flipped in the data from my TCU as I’ve checked it against previous SD2 data I have....

What I really don’t understand is why no one produces a single car variant that could be tied to the VIN for anything less than what is stupid money for enthusiasts.
I don’t buy the argument that I run a Ferrari so you should just pony up 10k or in my case 20% of the value of the car so I can view what is in effect, my own data.

 

It's a liability issue. If anybody was able to purchase a low priced scan tool for their car, with full access and programming, there would be a lot of messed up cars and angry people.

You must understand the data you are looking at, and you must know its accurate. I can pick out oddities pretty quickly because I work on cars for a living. Mainly Ferrari. Most people have their one car. They don't have the experiance or ability to look at the data and know something is wrong based on past experiance.

A low cost tool available to the regular Joe who thinks they know better is a recipie for disaster. However I must admit..it could work in my favor also..

 

nessue-gte, thank you for the valueable input. great artible.
Do you know the proper procedure for bleeding the e-diff? how many nipples do we have to bleed? in what sequence? in x431 or whatever scantool, which buttons to push first, then what, then what?

Also, https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/f430-removing-f1-actuator-to-tighten-bleed-screws.575003/page-3
post #68 , i think it is wrong. That is a nipple for bleeding e-diff, right?

 

Here is why I believe my identification of that nipple as the F1 bleed valve is correct.
Ricambi's parts diagram shows that valve block does not exist in Non-F1 cars.

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Additionally, here are videos graciously posted by Pantuso Automotive which specializes in Ferrari service:

This video shows use of the valve block I used for my F1 bleed.
Bleed F430 Ferrari f1 pump with the Leonardo Diagnostic

For the eDiff bleed, this front nipple is not used.
Bleed eDiff with Leonardo Diagnostic Ferrari 430

 

can't really see which nipple was connected and which button was pushed on the leonardo.

I have full knowledge of 360 bleeding of everything, just the f430 is a little different, with complications of the e-diff

can

 

here's what i know


360's bleeding points:

1. nipple by the RH air intake box.
2. nipple by the clutch position sensor hole
3. three screws at the back of actuator.


430's bleeding points

1. same as 360
2. same as 360
3. same as 360
4. top nipple Left of the solenoids(f1 power unit).
5. bottom nipple Left of the solenoids(f1 power unit).
6. nipple by the e-diff solenoid attached to the gearbox



question is 4,5,6. how and in what sequence of these nipples to be bled?

 

so, OP , no resuilts yet? did u replace the 6x solenoids and the black bulb?

 

Finally I am back! And with some news about the problem and some commentary on the diagnosis process. Thank you to Flyingbrick242 for bringing me back here. This is how the story unfolded:

• I scheduled service with Cauley Ferrari for the soonest available opening
  • The earliest opening was in 48 days
  • I waited 47 days and then I got a call from the service manager:
    • "Can we reschedule you for maybe another month from now?"
    • I said 'No. I'll give you two more weeks and that's it.'
    • He accepted that offer.
• 61 days after I first scheduled my service, Cauley picked up the car with an enclosed carrier.
  • Pickup and 70 mile drive is complementary if service is performed.
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• After hearing nothing whatsoever one week after pickup, I finally called and talked to the service manager.
  • They hadn't asked me yet to give any details about the problem.
  • So obviously they hadn't begun diagnostics.
    
  • He finally asked me some basic questions and would have the car looked at ASAP.
• Diagnostic Results:
• I had a dash cam in the car, so I had extra insight into everything that occurred.
  • The first issue they investigated was 'Transmission dropping out of gear'.
    • This was never a problem I reported.
    • They spent the first day of diagnostic chasing that 'problem'.
    • They could not reproduce the issue or find the cause. This was not a surprise.
    • Its not clear to me that my issues and the documentation seen in this thread was communicated to the Technician at all.
    • Fortunately, the first day was not a total waste because the they did data logs with SD3. This would lead us to some answers.
  • Narrowing down the issue
    • After they gave up on finding the miscommunicated problem above, they started seeing the real issue.
    • Pressure loss in the F1 system was evident, "Twice the normal duty cycle". Personally, I believe it was more severe than that.
      • Interestingly, two technicians drove the car during initial SD3 logging and did not recognize from the F1 pump sound that it was running way too often. This was determined only after review of the SD3 logs.
    • E-Diff was ruled out entirely.
      • SD3 showed no indications of an E-Diff problem.
      • I asked the service manager a few times to confirm and explain why they believe that E-Diff was not involved with the issue. I was given satisfactory answers.
        • The E-Diff solenoid is the primary component that fails and needs replacing.
        • They have replaced hundreds of them in the past few years.
        • This car does not exhibit E-Diff problems.
        • I shifted my focus away from E-Diff.
    • F1 Hydraulic System Troubleshooting
      • SD3 shows serious internal leakage in F1 Hydraulic system.
      • First service recommendation:
        • Replace F1 Accumulator bulb
          • This was the very first part that was replaced when I began troubleshooting this problem.
          • I told the service manager that this part was already replaced with Ricambi part: 58552368 F1 ACCUMULATOR BOTTLE
          • He didn’t care. He said Ricambi parts are not Ferrari supplied parts and he needs to replace it.
        • This is the part in question:
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        • His quote to replace this part was:
          $ 2,825
      • I declined to replace this part again; unless it could be explained to me how the accumulator bottle could work normally in 3rd through 6th gears and fail in 1st and 2nd gear.
        • No satisfactory answer good be given.
    • Second service recommendation:
      • Replace F1 Power Unit
        • Cauley will not diagnose failed sub-components of the hydraulic power unit. They are not in the business of repairing F1 power units. Fair enough.
        • The service manager believes there is no further diagnosis that can be accomplished.
        • Cost to replace:
          $ 9,350
      • I declined to replace this part at that cost.
        • Serkan at GTE Engineering will rebuild an F1 Power Unit for $2600.
        • Its very near of the end of the Mid-West driving season, so I will have plenty of time for a rebuild.
    • Pissed-off Service Manager
      • Cauley had my car for roughly 3 weeks (although mostly sitting around)
      • I declined their suggested repairs.
        • This is a recipe for creating an angry service manager.
        • Other than throwing his pen at his desk, he would be expressing his anger very shortly.
      • I had high hopes that their world-class diagnostic tools would turn up a surprising magic bullet, but there was none. My hopes were too high.
        
      • I picked up the car and drove it 70 miles back home.
    • Final Bill
      
      • $170 Diagnostics
      • $350 Complimentary Car Pickup
        • The most expensive car tow I probably will ever have.
        • Well played, Service Manager... well played.

      ​
    • Next Steps
      • In the next couple of months I will remove the F1 Power Unit and send it to Florida.
      • With Serkan's help, we'll get it back in top shape and the car back on the road by spring.

Thanks for following me this far! I should have another update sometime in early 2019.

 

I have sent many units to GTE. Do yourself a favor and send the actuator with the power unit. That way he can test the entire system and repair as needed. The failure points are common to all units in both the 360 and 430. However, when you get the units back, you will need to bleed the power unit, actuator, release bearing and e-diff with a scan tool.

If you have the latest Autel unit, this should not be a problem.

 

Tom, that is very good advice. I will definitely do that. I want to give Serkan the highest chance of resolving my F1 issues for good. I look forward to living the dream of driving this car without a second thought about the F1 system.

 

just a hunch. is there anyway to block the e-diff from functioning. I.E. no pressure lost in the e-diff system. The reason i believe its not a e-diff problem is that my 360 has the same problem as yours. pump activates every 10-15 seconds. I replaced black bulb, all 6 solenoids, nothing happens. i have four 360s. here are the pump activation times with neutral at idle.
1st: 125 seconds
2nd: 119 seconds
3rd(car with problem): 12 seconds
4th: 98 seconds.

What I did next is to replace the TCU with a CS TCU in the 3rd car, guess what, the time increased to 40 seconds!

I put the 3rd car's TCU in the 1st car, guess what, it is still 120+ seconds.

 

These are very interesting results, a bit surprising I would say. Its not clear that your TCU on the 3rd car is faulty. But you are seeing some improvement with a different one. If we could do detailed data logs on each TCU to determine how they operate differently, we could understand much more about that improvement you saw. If I had the option to test a different F430 TCU, I would definitely try that. I would really have liked to see the dealer try it, but they dismissed TCU replacement as a meaningful option.

However, your findings have intrigued me enough and that I will pursue a TCU swap test like yours, before I pull my whole F1 system and ship it to Florida.

 

i have a leonardo , so i have full access to all these car's TCU data or whatever parameter the factory can see

if there's anything you want to see or datalog, let me know. I can cooperate with you to find out just exactly whats up with this problem.