There are some very interesting points here and they appear well thought out. It makes me glad I own a beautifully optioned 2018 812.
Understood, however, what of the drivetrain, quite possibly the last V12 production, certainly the last V12 without the abundance of nuisance nannies and strangling exhausts. If this comes to pass, what importance would you assign and how do you think that will effect collectability? My bias is this, if these come to pass, and the 812SF is the last of its kind (noting the 812GTS as a sister model and potential 812VS, however, each will be impacted by ADAS and GPF + Noise Regs) it will be sought after as the last genuine Ferrari experience for regular production. Imagine 10 years goes by, Ferrari's best selling model is the FUV and the V12 a distant memory, not even appearing in the hypercars/Iconas, would that have an impact on the desirableness? I certainly think so especially given its more playful nature vis-a-vis the F12 and honest drivetrain improvements versus the same. One more item, other than the sister models, all future new models will quite likely have the same interior as the SF90, making the 812 last of the 'analog' models (of course, not pure analog) without full digital dash and all the electronic gimmicks, as it is, the 812 interior is sublime.
Great points. Though I know people who won't buy any car with rear steer- they say it ruins the experience for them. I think we have our preferences. I am with @Hex - Im very very very glad I have a 2020 812 SF specced to my taste which fortunately doesn't have the radar (awful cutout) nor the GPF. I think there are always those who love or hate a particular shape. I actually didn't like the 812 shape at all when it first came out, but once I saw it in person I loved it. As an F12 lover its hard to admit but seeing an F12 and an 812 at the dealership the other day, the F12 looks a bit old by comparison- to my eyes. Also the way the 812 drives is really in another realm to the excellent F12. I think my first drive of an 812 did impact how I look at the car.
Wow a 2020 with no radar or GPF. Well done. I too fell in love with the shape of the 812 and after driving my friends 812 and having him show me it's abilities with all of it's sonic glory, I went looking for one. By the way, I think rear wheel steering rocks.
I’ve never understood the derision regarding the 812’s design. I loved it from the moment I saw it at the January 2017 Maranello unveiling. To my eyes, it’s the perfect marriage of classic and modern design elements. Outstanding GT proportions and such a pretty & practical interior layout with the rear shelf and large trunk. And that sound.... I can’t think of a better road trip car for two. Love the rws, too, on both the 812 and Lusso. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
A great thread. Lots of informed, reasoned points on a number of the macro level factors influencing what we are seeing at present with available cars or immediate slots and prices. In the uk we have seen the 812 prices reduce significantly as analysed earlier in the thread and in recent months all of a sudden lots of extremely low mileage cars have appeared on the market. Prices have collapsed versus say 6 months ago. Laws of supply and demand plus brexit uncertainty all have had in impact. I was offered a GTS allocation recently and seriously considered it as I do love the styling and would like to add a V12 to the garage - but looking at the economics for me, it’s just too difficult an economic decision. passing on the GTS and adding a virtually nil miles 812SF at probably 100k lower price just makes so much better financial sense. I actually think that Ferrari’s push for volume and pricing is going to result in a major pricing correction in the near term for used examples. And at starting prices of 300k/400k, you don’t have to lose much in % terms to be looking at drops approaching six figures. Some won’t care, but a lot of traditional Ferrari buyers absolutely will and perhaps take a different view of adding the next new model to their garage. Maybe the days of being confident that if you got a new model then-in 12 months you can sell it on for prices close to original cost. Those days are largely gone. Look at 488 GTB and Spider. I shudder to think what will happen to F8 prices a few months after these start to come through. Lots of comment elsewhere on the forum about the problems of McLaren residuals as they have pushed for more models and increased production - who would seriously buy a new series production McLaren today - not me for sure. let’s hope Ferrari doesn’t destroy its own heritage and brand by trying to be too clever in its quest to satisfy the investment markets. I find myself thinking I am increasingly fortunate to have my Pista in the garage - a car I simply love in every respect. I have no desire for another v8 at all. The Pista will keep me happy for a long time. As for adding a v12 however....we all know that we have a hankering for one, especially if emissions etc are going to make big changes, so it’s just a question of economics and smart decisions! I know what I will be doing early in the new year!! Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat.com mobile app
What's interesting to see is that low milage (ie sub 2k), later production year (>2015), high spec F12 have kept their value fairly well ... They dived around 20k when the 812 came to the pre owned market, but since been fairly steady at 215/220.... So the premium for the 812 over the F12 has come down to about 50/60k
No US cars are selling at or below 300k, privately or at auction. From what I've seen none are selling that cheap in Europe either...
Two local dealers had record October sales. Reason being Ferrari held up releasing cars in September as it appears they have hit their quarterly guidance given to Wall Street. Those scheduled September deliveries arrived in October, hence the record sales. The other reason could be Ferrari knows they will miss their numbers regardless and are taking their medicine (doubtful). We shall see on Monday.
Haven't we just returned to the norm for the 70 years that Ferrari has existed ? These are expensive cars bought by enthusiasts. If I had bought a new 250 GTO or Daytona or 550 Maranello what would I have got back when I sold it 2 or 3 years later ?
Even more recently, in 2010 I bought a 2007 599 at 30% off the initial price (or MSRP to use the US terminology) - it was a CPO from a Ferrari dealer, so the first owner lost more than these 30% in 3 years.
Thirty percent in 3 years would be great. Lately, it seems more like 30% within the first year, even on the mid-engined V8 models which historically held their value better than V12’s. We sold our $345K MSRP 2018 488 GTB with 320 miles in 2018 for $260K ($250K after commission). That’s a nearly 30% hit and it took 7 months to receive a single offer. Some might argue that it’s a 488-specific issue but honestly, more rapid depreciation is happening with nearly all regular production models now including the 812 - even with earlier deliveries. Supply >> demand. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I must admit that I did not fall in love with 812 when it was released but I recently go to see it in person and fell in love. I even got to see the 812 and F12 side by side and the F12 just looked a bit blah, a bit boring (both back and front). All the design details have to be seen in person to be appreciated. So much gets lost in the 2-D pictures, especially the rear of the 812 which looks quite different and "right" in person.
just shows that apart from the few people on here, 99.9% of owners probably have no clue what's going on in the market....if you are not close to the pulse you wouldn't notice as things only really started to go south from the summer, before it looked more like a soft landing....think many people will get a hard wake up call once they start looking at maybe upgrading ....and i am sure dealers remain tight lipped until they really have to
i was at the dealer last night and the 599 is way more beautiful that the f12 - the 812 gets closer to the the emotion a 599 inspired but not sure if it gets me all the way there...i wanted a 599 badly when it came out but opted for 612 and have been happy. didnt want an f12 at all but took a tdf allocation. the 812 is nice but not enough to stroke a check for it new. the 812 GTS hits the spot. i think the 812 market will follow its predecessors.
Funny you say this, as when I saw the 812 and F12 together, there was also a 599 there and to me it held its own next to the 812 and somehow was not overshadowed by it like the F12 was. It has a more flowing curvy shape but then I have loved the 599 from day one so I might be a bit biased
Ok so there now seem to be over 100 812s for sale in the US. One authorized dealer I spoke to said main reasons are launch of the 812 gts and the car being “scary”. Absolutely nothing is selling it seems. I have a friend who has had his delivery miles 812 for sale for some time and he shared with me that for it to move it would have to be around $300k so $100k approx off list price. The increase in both list prices and volumes will cause all of us to take losses which will really spoil the fun which will lower sales which will lower residuals and so Ferrari will ruin the game and pay the price, especially as the economy continues to slow. Soon 2 year old cars will be half price and that will be the time to buy. Wish I would follow my advice as I have two 488s coming but luckily the dealer took me out of my 812 at $20k under list so they could resell. I was annoyed at the time but think he did me a favor.
812 volume in USA is quite low by historical standards, and where to you find 100 for sale? I know there are some for sale that the customer walked away from and did not take delivery and those cannot be advertised, but how many of those are there? I think the long-term future is still quite good for "re-sale" as the V12 will quite likely disappear from regular production (i.e. no V12 replacement for the 812) and 812 coupe production for the USA will be quite low from this point forward (even lower than it has been due to limited factory allocations as EU/China were being oversupplied) as nearly every future order has been cancelled or transferred to 812GTS wait list, that will likely result in fewer than 1,000 812 coupes in the USA for all model years (i.e. not including the 812GTS) - as compared to F12 (approx. 2200 in USA) the 812 will be more rare. In fact it could be less than 800 coupes total, about equal to the approx. number of 458Speciales in the USA.
I genuinely think it will go down as one of the greats. Noise is fantastic it is blisteringly quick and scary (what a great combination).
I don't find the 812 scary to drive at all. Just a lot of fun. Besides, Enzo Ferrari wanted cars to scare you a little bit!
