308 Weber to TWM throttle body and electromotive | Page 5 | FerrariChat

308 Weber to TWM throttle body and electromotive

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by cavallo_nero, Feb 22, 2008.

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  1. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

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    Russ Turner
    #101 snj5, Aug 8, 2010
    +1
     
  2. cavallo_nero

    cavallo_nero Formula 3

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    Giovanni Pasquale
    #102 cavallo_nero, Aug 9, 2010
    "Doesn't that vacuum set-up,, equalize the vacuum in the intakes,, slightly....?"

    Nice read.

    the vacuum is a closed system, it doesnt move around if the system doesnt leak. so , i cant see how it would have any equalization properties in the system.

    sorry guys, no new dyno runs yet. I am going to run PURE gas, i found a station that sells non ethanol gas. once i get the car tuned to run on real gas, i can tune accordingly.
    the car is running fantastic btw...
     
  3. Pizzaman Chris

    Pizzaman Chris F1 Rookie

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    #103 Pizzaman Chris, Aug 9, 2010
    Pure gas??!!


    Geez John, isn't that what killed Curly? ;)
     
  4. cavallo_nero

    cavallo_nero Formula 3

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    #104 cavallo_nero, Aug 10, 2010
    haha, crack me up Chris.
    there are only 10 stations that sell non ethanol gas in all of colorado. one of them is 5 minutes from work - lucky me. soon, i will be an ethanol free zone!!!
     
  5. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    May 10, 2006
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    John!
    #105 Ferraripilot, Aug 10, 2010
    Where's that 221bhp @7900 rpm dyno sheet! We need to see that! lol

    BTW, I love this project.
     
  6. cavallo_nero

    cavallo_nero Formula 3

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    Giovanni Pasquale
    #106 cavallo_nero, Aug 10, 2010
    its on page 4 of this thread - 206 hp at the rear wheels. plus 18 percent, gives about 245.
    i will go back to the dyno someday, i finally have things sorted out with this conversion - all my sensors are playing. I doubt i will get much more HP (perhaps on real gas), but at full throttle - the system runs open loop anyway - regardless of faulty sensors in most respects.
    there is soooooo much to configure in the software program. i am not after HP by the way - a nice smooth flat torque curve is more appealing at this altitude - 7500 feet...
     
  7. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    John!
    #107 Ferraripilot, Aug 10, 2010
    Your runs were on a Mustang style dyno which always read lower. Probably pushing 220 with a dynojet. Sounds fantastic either way really. Wow that is some serious altitude.
     
  8. cavallo_nero

    cavallo_nero Formula 3

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    #108 cavallo_nero, Aug 11, 2010
    John, how do you know it is mustang style dyno??? They are a mustang shop by the way.
     
  9. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    #109 Ferraripilot, Aug 11, 2010
    I can tell by the software they are using. That is Mustang software sir.
     
  10. cavallo_nero

    cavallo_nero Formula 3

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    #110 cavallo_nero, Dec 5, 2019
    Hey Folks, its been almost 15 years since this upgrade. The car always ran good, but never good or clean enough. I suspect is because I pieced together the whole system and nothing was integrated.
    I am getting rid of the electromotive ECU and surgically removing my homeade wire harness from the car.
    Going with the new Holley EFI system, 550-604N, includes the ECU, terminated, universal wire harness (for a ford truck), and all sensors that are calibrated to the ECU (this is big). I have installed the wire harness in the 308, with no modifications to the harness - it all fit. I will have to make a harness to fire the coils. and I want to go sequential injection this time, that means some fabrication of a cam sensor bracket, not sure how to do this yet. Anyway, I am excited for this system expecially since it is all integrated (especially the EGO sensor area). The HolleyECU is a learning system and extremely versatile.
    First step was to install and fire up the ECU in the 308, sort out that wire harness, and download my base cals from my laptop to ecu, and see a couple sensors functioning as viewed on my laptop.. So far it all works good, it will be a while before I attempt to start the car, holley has their **** together with this integrated universal system (designed for ANY car).
    Attached are some pics, of the old wiring, Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login and the new goodies.
     
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  11. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #111 mk e, Dec 5, 2019
    I this MAP based load sensing?

    I've come to realize over the years that a good MAP signal with ITBs is a challenge....you generally get a decent signal at idle the all but vanishes by 10 or 20% throttle which leads to tuning nightmares.

    I ended up having a board designed that let's me run a separate MAP on each cylinder then the board seats the lowest pressure to the ECU. With on my V12 I see about 35kpa at idle the goes smoothly to 100kpa as the throttle goes to 100%. It will do 2-12 cylinders.....if to can solder you can download the files, get a pcb and solder it up for about $100-$150. I have the gen 1 board you could have...but I don't remember what was wrong with it.....it was missing traces somewhere and failed testing but jumpers might fix it. But the files are fix and free if you want to make q good one.

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  12. cavallo_nero

    cavallo_nero Formula 3

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    #112 cavallo_nero, Dec 6, 2019
    yes it is, I made a catch can system 15 years ago (I think there is a pic on this thread) to grab one bank of manifold pressure from 4 cylinders, that feeds the MAP sensor, it works good, I probably would have benefited from grabbing all 8 cyl. I don't want to remove the throttle bodies to get to the other 4 lines, I hope thos never have to be removed, what a pain to get those in there.
     
  13. cavallo_nero

    cavallo_nero Formula 3

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    #113 cavallo_nero, Dec 6, 2019
    heres a pic, I originally designed it for IAC, but it is much more effective in the reverse mode as a vacuum catch. Your system and board looks fantastic mk e, maybe someday when I have to do some dismantling, I will definitely make one for myself. Thanks for sharing Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  14. steved033

    steved033 F1 Veteran
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    #114 steved033, Dec 6, 2019
    Great project!

    sjd
     
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  15. cavallo_nero

    cavallo_nero Formula 3

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    #115 cavallo_nero, Dec 6, 2019
    you are correct, I have since gone with 21 lb injectors.
     
  16. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #116 mk e, Dec 7, 2019
    Do you know what the MAP signal looks like - how much vacuum are you seeing at idle and as the throttle opens? You don't have a data log you could post do you? Just asking because this seems to really be a problem to getting tuning "right" ...it seems like everyone struggles here.

    With a catch can type setup (and a common IAC setup) the vacuum often is moderate at idle...say 65kpa and drops to about 80-85 kpa be 10-20% throttle and that only leaves the about 15kpa to tune the whole rest of the range which makes getting a good tune a real challenge. I saw a setup a couple years ago that was at like 92kpa at 20% throttle...that's just not enough signal to work with. Race setup usually use TPS load sense which works great from about 50% throttle up so perfect at the track but not great around town on a street car.

    I guess what I'm saying is the problem you described with tuning sounds like something all of us with ITBs struggle with and this might be a good time to review any data logs you have to be certain you have a good MAP signal if you are planning to stick with speed-density tuning. You have a nice ECU and I see it has S-D &alpha-n blend which often helps with ITBs...but ITBs are way harder to tune well then I ever would have guessed before tying so best to be sure you have good signals going to the ECU to start with....garbage in= garbage out kind of thing.

    Just to make idle/low power even hard my injectors are 95lb/hr (http://injectordynamics.com/injectors/id1000/ ) and my TBs are 54mm...but it seems to work.
     
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  17. cavallo_nero

    cavallo_nero Formula 3

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    #117 cavallo_nero, Dec 7, 2019
    For 15 years it ran pretty good with the electromotive/TWM setup, as good if not better than the carbs, I never had the ego feedback engaged because of compatibility issues(so I ran solely off the Volumetric efficiency table I modified), this new system will be interesting because Holley calibrates the EGO sensor they send you with the ECU and all the other sensors they send you, pretty much.
    WOT dyno runs at high rpm were easiest to tune, driveability tuning took forever and was never right. (Max power back then with the old setup and ITBs was around 250 - 260 HP (normalized for sea level - meaning power up here is a lot less) I don't remember what my kpa readings were, I can research and report. the numbers would be with the old system (shouldn't mater) as I don't have her running yet, maybe in a month or so. Also, I live at 7000 feet above sea level, darn power robbing altitude - lol.
    Also, the use of TPS/MAP blending with Electromotive took care of a LOT of driveability issues at the start of this project. Holley has the same feature.
     
  18. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior

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    #118 TommyA, Dec 7, 2019
    Giovanni,
    I don't want to hijack your post but I have been converting in to a Motec with crank and cam triggers and looking for ideas on the Cam trigger wheel just like you. I have posted on the tech forum and received no replies. The only one that I have seen in the FC is the one that Chris (pizzaman) made some time ago. Any ideas or help will be greatly appreciated.
     
  19. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #119 mk e, Dec 8, 2019
    Its always the drive-ability....after trying to tune start up , off idle and such it amazes me how I can jump in any production car on a freezing morning turn the key and drive. I look forward to hearing how your new ECU works out.

    Wasn't Nick selling a setup? maybe worth a call. I made a couple bolt-on setups over the years one billet, one converted a stock distributor....there are probably pics buried in one of my supercharger threads. My latest on the V12 is more permanent but WAY easier to make. This uses a GM wheel speed sensors but I had some trouble so I switched to a hall to a hall type thread-in sensor. Then a little trigger slips on the cam with a roll pin to hold it.



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  20. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior

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    #120 TommyA, Dec 8, 2019
    Mark,
    Is there anything that I can do with the old rotor? Using it as a trigger? Maybe something on Nick's adjustable pulleys?
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  21. cavallo_nero

    cavallo_nero Formula 3

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    #121 cavallo_nero, Dec 8, 2019
    I too need a solution for cam trigger. I have some ideas and will report back.
    Using that old distributor is a great idea!
     
  22. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior

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    #122 TommyA, Dec 8, 2019
    Since the metal piece is removable on the rotor, we can fabricate a similar piece made of mild steel that can be bolted on to it. I have just emailed Motec to see if this type of setup will work with the M800. Will keep you posted. If it does work it's an easy approach to solve that problem.
     
  23. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #123 mk e, Dec 9, 2019
    The rotor is the easy part. You just drill a hole to fit the end of the cam shaft and add a set-screw on the side to lock it to the flat. Making it is about an hour job start to finish.

    What takes the time is making a replacement for the distributor cap that mounts the sensor itself....depending how pretty you want it. That's a 3-4 hour job probably so all in you're looking at around $500 of work as a 1 off setup. A small batch or 5 would be about 2/3 the price I guess. I'm trying to get my engine back together but if a few of you want something I could fit it in in the next few weeks.

    Somebody with a CNC might be able to do it cheaper.....protolabs has an online quoting setup and they are reasonable:

    https://www.protolabs.com/?utm_campaign=us-ppc&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=branded-protolabs&gclid=Cj0KCQiA_rfvBRCPARIsANlV66Px3U0rf9rVrHsYrijiwHlT7j5OdvuAXNiW8EYyh01cyeuuBqtoc9QaAkM9EALw_wcB

    To get a quote you need to send a model, onshape is a free to use online CAD program that works well
    https://www.onshape.com/

    On the front it would be very easy to replace 1 bolt on the adjustable pulley with a longer bold with spacer so it stick out at least 1/4" above the others, then drill a hole in the belt cover and mount a hall sensor.....but it means drilling a hole in the cover.

    These are the senors I've been using lately. I have the long red on on the crank and as wheel speed (for traction control) and short black on for the cam. I was playing with an open source ECU project and ended up testing bunch of sensors and these are the best of the common hall sensors.
    http://switches-sensors.zf.com/us/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2015/01/Magnetic-Proximity-Sensor-MP1005-MP1007.pdf

    Generic 1 tooth cam setups like theses should work with any ECU. Where you get into trouble is with modern OEM multiple tooth setups designed for quick sycn and/or cam position monitoring, there are a lot more requirements on setups like that so I avoid that stuff when ever possible.
     
  24. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    #124 Aircon, Dec 9, 2019
    This is what I've got, it works great.
     
  25. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior

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    #125 TommyA, Dec 9, 2019
    Peter what kind of ECU are you running and can you post some images of the cam trigger?
     
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