Ferrari 458 Italia dry cell racing battery upgrade

458trofeo · Nov 23, 2016

MuratC said: ↑

Hi Guys

Yes, my Braille battery works just fine, but I try to keep the car hooked to its special charger all the time. As I measured it my Braille battery will last at least last 7-10 days (car parked)without getting critically discharged. But I went with Braille Lithium battery not to be exotic or anything but for pure weight reduction reasons as I track my car regularly in a competitive way. So it may not be very convenient to have it for casual street driving.
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Glad all well Murat!

Fwiw my Braille is fantastic, have had it for about a year, only street driving and
works great and.. only weighs 4.8kg hahaaa!

Very best

Aeroengineman · Nov 23, 2016

As you can see the label on my 2015 battery says L3 AGM. Is this the same battery that was failing in the 2010 and 2011 models?
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leead1 · Nov 24, 2016

These batteries are great. They have ab awesome amount of cranking power. My '65 Shelby kit Cobra had a very high compression ratio. Odyssey was the only battery that could handle the cranking power. This cobra had no compression release like most of these cars.

It has been a long time but as I remember they were expected to last 12 years, my battery did last 11 years which is not bad.

In those days my car storage area had no electrical plug. This battery did not need constant charging if the car is not used for awhile. Most common batteries last 3 months with out charging. I think these batteries lasted over a year.

I had one in my chopper. The small common battery would barley turn the engine over the Odyssey had no problem.

THE ONLY DRAWBACK COULD BE THE amp Hours required to charge it. I had to buy a special made Battery Tender

great battery

Lee

RayJohns · Nov 28, 2016

Just a quick update:

Well, the Odyssey PC925 battery, while very able to crank the car, doesn't seem to have the same long stand by time it did when used in the 360. So far, my exerpeince with the 458 is that I'm lucky to get 8 or 10 days. I presume this is due to the higher parasitic current draw of the 458.

I'm currently in talks with Gary at Braille battery regarding switching to one of their batteries soon here.

I'll update after I make the change and follow up with pictures and videos.

Ray

Melvok · Nov 28, 2016

Aeroengineman said: ↑

As you can see the label on my 2015 battery says L3 AGM. Is this the same battery that was failing in the 2010 and 2011 models?
Click to expand...

I had rthe "OEM" F battery ...

It is of 2014 so lasted only 3 years. Car being 2012, the first one also lasted only 3 years.

So why buy these frightfully expensive ones ?

Bought an ordinary 74 Amps AGM and all is well ...

Some small jokes (FOB, windows etc) ...

Looks to be perfect now ... Read all about it here !

Nice: this AGM is also 6 kgs lighter Carlo ! ... For free ...
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458trofeo · Nov 28, 2016

RayJohns said: ↑

Just a quick update:

Well, the Odyssey PC925 battery, while very able to crank the car, doesn't seem to have the same long stand by time it did when used in the 360. So far, my exerpeince with the 458 is that I'm lucky to get 8 or 10 days. I presume this is due to the higher parasitic current draw of the 458.

I'm currently in talks with Gary at Braille battery regarding switching to one of their batteries soon here.

I'll update after I make the change and follow up with pictures and videos.

Ray
Click to expand...

I would def. go Braille Ray, for the life of me cannot understand why everyone does
not switch to a Braille cf LI Ion battery..

Who cares about the cost when you own a 250K+ usd car?

very best

Melvok · Nov 29, 2016

458trofeo said: ↑

Who cares about the cost when you own a 250K+ usd car?

very best
Click to expand...

Well .... some do Carlo, if there no real good reason ... and a battery seems to be a battery ...
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radlu · Nov 6, 2017

OMG

RayJohns · Nov 6, 2017

458trofeo said: ↑

I would def. go Braille Ray, for the life of me cannot understand why everyone does
not switch to a Braille cf LI Ion battery..

Who cares about the cost when you own a 250K+ usd car?

very best
Click to expand...

I've since installed a Braille I48Cs; best battery ever. I'll be doing an update on it soon here.

Ray

MalibuGuy · Nov 6, 2017

Hi Ray John-
I remember you from the 360 forum.
I had a 360and did quite a few mods myself.
Welcome to the 458.
This is a much more evolved car and so the number of mods you can do that make a significant improvement are much smaller.

Anyway in my 2014 458 spider, the battery I have is an Odyssey 48- I use the Ferrari factory batter charger which is better than the Battery Tender brand.

I am not as concerned with a little extra weight, since I’d rather have more battery capacity.

If you do want to save weight, get a set of forged rims.

The 458has much more power and torque than the 360, so saving twenty pounds is not noticeable

MalibuGuy · Nov 10, 2017

For comparison here are the specs for the Odyssey Battery which my service center recommends in the 458 and possible the 488.

Retail cost is around $260.

Hot Cranking Amps (PHCA): 1250
Cold Cranking Amps (CCA): 723
20Hr Nominal Capacity (Ah): 69
Reserve Capacity Minutes: 130
Dimensions L x W x H (in): 10.91 x 6.89 x 7.5
Weight (lbs): 48.0
Weight (kg): 21.8

RayJohns · Nov 10, 2017

MalibuGuy said: ↑

For comparison here are the specs for the Odyssey Battery which my service center recommends in the 458 and possible the 488.

Retail cost is around $260.

Hot Cranking Amps (PHCA): 1250
Cold Cranking Amps (CCA): 723
20Hr Nominal Capacity (Ah): 69
Reserve Capacity Minutes: 130
Dimensions L x W x H (in): 10.91 x 6.89 x 7.5
Weight (lbs): 48.0
Weight (kg): 21.8
Click to expand...

Probably good for about 15-20 days without a battery tender. My PC925 was 28 Ah and would fail to start the car after about 7-8 days generally (unless charged).

I think part of the issue is discharge rate. With a normal battery, you have both static discharge, as well as the car's parasitic draw, working against you. With a Lithium battery, such as the Braille, you are only up against the parasitic draw. Maybe I can ask Gary at Braille some questions and relate them here further.

Ray

MalibuGuy · Nov 12, 2017

I’d like to see Ferrari offer a lithium ion battery upgrade option which will address the charging and discharging thermal and electrical management.

This would involve perhaps more complex adoption than just simply swapping in a Braille battery.

In terms of cost, lithium ion is more expensive. But if it holds the potential of being more resistant to failure due to parasitic losses, that would be advantageous.

I acknowledge that many customers get excited whenever weight is saved. Just look at the popularity of titanium lugs and carbon trim .

However, when it comes to the battery, the priority is functionality. A flat battery in a Ferrari is a drag. Just look at all the threads complaining about this.

RayJohns · Nov 12, 2017

MalibuGuy said: ↑

This would involve perhaps more complex adoption than just simply swapping in a Braille battery.

In terms of cost, lithium ion is more expensive. But if it holds the potential of being more resistant to failure due to parasitic losses, that would be advantageous.

I acknowledge that many customers get excited whenever weight is saved. Just look at the popularity of titanium lugs and carbon trim .

However, when it comes to the battery, the priority is functionality. A flat battery in a Ferrari is a drag.
Click to expand...

From an electrical engineering standpoint, technically you can replace a car battery with a very large capacitor and the car won't know the difference. The battery is only acting as a long term storage device for electrons.

The main concern when using a Lithium battery relates to charging it outside of the car's electrical system (e.g. when using a battery tender or charger to top off the charge). You can't use a standard battery charger designed for lead based batteries. A lithium battery requires a different charging profile and voltage or you risk damaging the cells.

Like you say, a dead battery in a Ferrari is a real drag. And it doesn't even have to be a totally dead battery. Even just a battery where the voltage falls a bit too low (from sitting a week or more) will often fail to start the car and cause the computer to issue warning codes. Before installing the Braille battery, I ran into this a lot with my smaller odyssey PC925 battery and it was very frustrating. After not driving the car for a week or so, the battery wasn't totally dead. However, the voltage would be low enough to fail to start the car on the first push of the start button. Sometimes on the 2nd push, the car would crank over - but the car would then issue a warning symbol and electrical system failure / go to dealer message. All that gets old real fast.

For me, the two main issues are:

1. having peace of mind that the car is going to start every time.
2. not having to constantiy use a battery tender

Thus far, the Braille battery has provided both. The weight savings is nice, but that's just an added bonus. For me, my main focus isn't saving a few pounds off the car. If it were, I'd remove the electric, heated seats and install carbon fiber racing seats or buy a Speciale instead of an Italia. With the 458, comfort, enjoyment and reliability are the main issues for me. Sure I like the performance, but I also like taking my girlfriend out on the town.

$2600 may seem like a lot for a battery, but remeber this: nothing is less sexy than your Ferrari not starting when heading out to dinner...

Ray

Ash Patel · Nov 13, 2017

RayJohns said: ↑

$2600 may seem like a lot for a battery, but remeber this: nothing is less sexy than your Ferrari not starting when heading out to dinner...

Ray
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Amen to that! Do you have a link to the ordering page of this battery?

RayJohns · Nov 13, 2017

Ash Patel said: ↑

Amen to that! Do you have a link to the ordering page of this battery?
Click to expand...

Here is the battery I'm running:

https://www.braillebattery.com/index.php/braille/product_batteries/i48cs

The size is group 48 and it's a perfect fit into the 458 without any modifications or hassles.

Originally, I was going to get the I48CX, because it was so light weight and less money. However, after thinking it over, I came to the conclusion that the I48CS made more sense. Yes, it's 8 lbs more; but that 8 lbs gets you twice the standby time as compared to the CX version - and 18 lbs total is still incredibly light for a battery with 50 Ah of reserve.

Ray

Melvok · Nov 14, 2017

RayJohns said: ↑

.... $2600 may seem like a lot for a battery, but remeber this: nothing is less sexy than your Ferrari not starting when heading out to dinner...

Ray
Click to expand...

Never ... ever ... for me Ray, sorry !

Baitschev · Nov 18, 2017

Image Unavailable, Please Login Check this Saving 20 kg how cheep is that!!!!!

Solid State · Nov 18, 2017

Well, to be fair, Ferrari has sold quite a few cup holders for $3,300 each! But it does a good job holding a water bottle.

MalibuGuy · Feb 28, 2018

Interesting development. Ferrari is going with a Li Ion battery in the 488 Pista.

The rationale is about weight savings.

It will be interesting to learn more about this. Battery size (Battery Council Group) and fitment hardware. Also would like to learn about changes to the electrical system such as charging strategy while running and battery tender compatibility.

The mid rear V8s place the battery in the cockpit ahead of the passenger footwell. This is probably advantageous for a Lithium Ion because it is a relatively cool environment.

In front engined F cars, the Cali in particular, the battery is located between the radiators and the engine block. This location was chosen for weight balance. The heat has little effect on AGM lifespan. This location probably isn’t a good place for Li ION.

However, since the Li Ion weighs less it could be relocated to a cooler location, without handling penalty Not sure where the other front engined FCars keep their battery.

It will be interesting to see if Ferrari switches to Li Ion for less track-focused cars. The normal range have greater electrical demands for the hifi stereo, navagation, etc. If so, that would mean that a properly paired Li Ion has a service life and reliability comparable if not superior to AGM.

drvik · Apr 29, 2018

I'm surprised that nobody has brought up the issue of fire, caused by lithium battery failure. Particularly, how would an insurance company respond to a claim when a non-genuine, non-lead acid battery is installed (by the owner) into a lead acid charging system?

From my previous reading, lithium batteries are very sensitive and require considerable electronics to regulate input voltages to prevent damaging the cells. Basically, regulating the maximum voltage being fed into the cells, balancing charging between the cells evenly, and preventing drawdown past the point of battery damage, with the bonus that the smart batteries will save enough charge, that you can come back anytime, wake up the battery and start your engine. Braille appears not to have any of these electronics within the battery itself, but I have not confirmed this directly with Braille.

Here is a quote from another forum discussing this topic.
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-turbo/1053769-braille-lightweight-battery-install.html

drive

First and most important is Safety, and not damaging your vehicle.

1-Basically a Lifepo4 (the lithium chemistry) Battery designed for Motorsports Applications will work fine in the standard Automotive System. But where potential problems can occur is if you put a Lithium Battery on a Lead/Acid Battery Charger, or fast charge it from a low voltage which I will explain below. Many Lead/Acid chargers will over-charge Lithium Batteries, or continue over-cycling them, they also go into what is called "Desulfate Mode" which puts higher voltage (above 15v) into the Lead/Acid Battery.... Lithium will be ruined by this mode because Lithium should never be charged above 15v MAX and it does not Sulfate like Lead does. You do need to use a specific Lithium Charger to charge a lithium battery. But keep in mind an Automotive Charging system does NOT charge the way an aftermarket charger does, so you do not have to worry in most cases, unless you have an aftermarket Alternator for Racing... just make sure it doesn't go above 14.8v which is usually the standard.

2- Lithium-Ion can be dangerous when overcharged... or over-discharged then fast-charged. For example overcharging due to using the wrong charger or having some aftermarket system that start pumping voltage above 16v will damage the battery for the most part, but it can be much worse if a Alternator breaks and starts putting 24v to the battery, or you use a charger that is wrong, like a 16v charger on a 12v battery. Keep in mind this would be exceptionally rare for an modern Alternator to start pumping out high voltage but happens in older vehicles with mechanical voltage regulators that get stuck not regulating voltage. So this over-charge effect can damage the lithium cells and also can make them swell up. The worst case scenario of this is when the Lithium Battery goes into Thermal Runaway, this is basically where the lithium-battery has been damaged to a high degree and starts to spontaneously raise in temperature and basically melts down internally. Though raw flame is usually not typical with the Lifepo4 cells is absolutely can happen, but usually it is mainly high heat and alot of smoking and the battery case melting and it will damage areas around it, with a worst case being raw flame and fire.
Click to expand...

drvik · Apr 29, 2018

3- There is one condition that will have the greatest potential for Thermal Runaway is when you have a Lithium Battery that does not have low-voltage protection built-in and that battery gets over-discharged down into the 2v through 8vt range..... When you take a lithium battery into a low-voltage status it is very important not to fast-charge that lithium battery. It must be massaged back up to approximately 10.5V on a quality Lithium Charger at which point it can take a normal fast charge as from a Vehicles system. But unfortunately sometimes not driving the car enough and not keeping it on a maintainer can cause this OVER-DISCHARGE of the battery.... then the User un-knowingly Jump-Starts the Car and then the car starts fast-charging the Lithium Battery from that low-voltage it was sitting at..... and this can result is the lithium battery cells swelling/expanding physically, then potentially the high heat can lead to a thermal runaway condition I explained above.

So the bottom line here is that a Lithium Battery usually needs a full and real Battery Management System (BMS) built-in to the battery... The BMS is an on-board circuit board that actually manages all the input to the Battery. Meaning the BMS will PREVENT the battery cells from being Over-Discharged, Over-Charged, and it will Balance all the Lithium Cells together so that when they discharge and are recharged again they all stay balanced and finally the BMS will monitor the Battery Temprature..... A BMS is found in most every commercial Lithium-Ion product made from Power Tool Batteries to Power Banks, and Laptop Batteries. This makes sure the USER will not accidentally over-discharge the battery, and will get the longest potential life from the battery since it controls how the battery is charged and has the built-in protections for over-discharge and over-charge.

Unfortunately the Braille Battery mentioned above does not have any of those protections... not trying to bash them, I'm just stating facts. Most the batteries we have opened and tested by Braille offer none of the Protections for Lithium-Ion batteries that are required, in fact the Brailles didn't even have Cell Balancing which is the bare minimum you should have when using Lithium-Ion products. We did not test them all... but I see no indication from Braille they have done this yet. That's not good at all. So while the Porsche Lithium Battery is GROSSLY over-priced, it does have those protections in it and it built correctly as is the McLaren Lithium Starter Battery. Without the protections and BMS if you drop your Lithium Battery below 10.5v you are going into an OVER-DISCHARGED state... and you battery is being damaged. Additionally when your battery sits in the lower voltage ranges from 2v~9v the damage is rapidly occurring and the longer in that state of low voltage the more damage and I am talking a few hours of very low voltage and you battery is ruined. So you can quickly ruin your Lithium Battery by over-discharge.

Can a Lithium battery operate without the BMS and Protections.... yes it can, and if you maintain it and don't let it get to a low state of charge it can work well for a while... but it will absolutely not get its full life span and start to degrade after 6 months and have potential safety issues if not maintained. Lithium is rated from 2000-2500 cycles for the cells (quality cells), Lead acid is rated at 750 to 1000 cycles on a good battery... so the potential for Lithium for a much longer life span is great PROVIDED you don't over-discharge/over-charge it AND you have to keep the cells balanced. Not having the BMS significantly decreases the lifespan and opens up the potential for Thermal Runaway and battery damage if over-discharged.

On to other stuff...
1- Your modern Porsches have A LOT of Parasitic Draw/Drain on them from onboard computers, the ECU, anti-theft electronics etc.... this one reason why you would want the largest Amp Hour Battery in there.... because if the car sits for a few weeks it can draw down a 48Ah battery which is pretty significant draw compared to other cars... So then you need the maintainer if you are not driving enough to keep it charged. So when you are putting in a Lithium Battery, in most cases you WILL NOT be getting as may REAL Amp Hours as with a Lead Acid Battery of the same physical size. This is for a few reasons but basically due to the cost of the Lithium Cells, and the fact is Lithium has so much more Power (Cranking Amps) than Lead Acid that it's crazy. For example we make a Lithium Battery that is 1 pound and 1" wide by 4" long by 3" tall and it can easily rip start not only any Porsche, but easily starts Chevy 350 Motors like in a Silvarado Truck.... but that 1 pound battery only has 2.5 Amp Hours... which would be drained in a few hours by the Parasitic Drain in your typical modern Porsche. So the power isn't the issue.... its the Amp Hours IF you are mainly using it for a daily driver. For example the Braille Battery is about a 25Ah battery. About half as much REAL Amp Hours as the stock Lead/Acid battery.... so under a Parasitic Drain it will not sit as long as the stock Lead/Acid battery. So you had better keep in on the (lithium specific) maintainer. And if you forgot about it for a few weeks and didn't put it on the Maintainer your Braille Battery is going to be dead and ruined unfortunately because it will have been Over-Discharged.... and Braille won't cover you under warranty... not would any company... you are NOT allowed to over-discharge a battery and make a warranty claim. And since the Braille does not have the built-in Low Voltage Cut off you battery is not protected from Over-discharge or a warranty claim. So that is the tricky area to watch for on the Braille Battery and less advanced Lithium-Ion products. You can ruin it quickly where as other companies (wink-wink nod-nod) do have the protections and make it correctly and protect the battery from Damage... therefore making a battery that lasts and is more "fool-proof" so to speak.

2- A poster above asked about why he was told the Porsche system need to be set up on the vehicle for Lithium..... I have been in discussions with a Renn-Lister about batteries for a while as we were getting up to speed on Porsche's systems in relation to batteries and was informed that the PIWIS has to be set for the lithium battery, which I assume is just allowing the system to know there is a lithium battery in the vehicle and it might provide some different alogorithm for charging the lithium battery, but I assume it just to adjust some things so the system does know there are different resting voltages between the two batteries... for example lead acid is usually resting at 12.4~12.8 and Lithium is normally resting at 13.2~13.7/

Anyway sorry for the long ramble... Education is really important in this relatively new Lithium Battery market, and there is alot of mis-information and lack of understanding the maintenance on model without a BMS. So if you have any questions please let me know. I will continue to just offer facts and not promote what we do until we are on as an official vendor and I will then make a Battery Thread so people can get the low-down and tech understanding for Lithium-Ion Starter products.
Click to expand...

RayJohns · Apr 30, 2018

drvik said: ↑

I'm surprised that nobody has brought up the issue of fire, caused by lithium battery failure. Particularly, how would an insurance company respond to a claim when a non-genuine, non-lead acid battery is installed (by the owner) into a lead acid charging system?

From my previous reading, lithium batteries are very sensitive and require considerable electronics to regulate input voltages to prevent damaging the cells. Basically, regulating the maximum voltage being fed into the cells, balancing charging between the cells evenly, and preventing drawdown past the point of battery damage, with the bonus that the smart batteries will save enough charge, that you can come back anytime, wake up the battery and start your engine. Braille appears not to have any of these electronics within the battery itself, but I have not confirmed this directly with Braille.

Here is a quote from another forum discussing this topic.
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-turbo/1053769-braille-lightweight-battery-install.html

drive
Click to expand...

I spoke with Gary at Braille before installing their battery into my 458. Naturally, one of the questions I had for the company was relating to the risk of fire.

My takeaway from our conversation was that there is some confusion regarding the risks of cell phone type lithium batteries catching on fire vs. other types of lithium based batteries catching on fire. Keep in mind, the risks are based on many factors (cell type, battery design, etc, etc.) not strictly that Lithium is involved. Additionally, I think it's important to remember that there are a lot of different chemistries used, when it comes to Lithium compounds used in cells. Here is some information I had previously read regarding the subject; perhaps it might pertain to this conversation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_battery

So far I've been very happy with the Braille battery in my car. I have never used any sort of battery charger (although I do own the charger sold by Braille). The car has sat for a number of weeks and always cranked right over. Probably the best upgrade I have made to any Ferrari actually.

Ray

F485 · Sep 22, 2020

am just concerned about electric and charging matter with lithuim battery. i would stick with original or any similar brand.

RayJohns · Sep 22, 2020

F485 said: ↑

am just concerned about electric and charging matter with lithuim battery. i would stick with original or any similar brand.
Click to expand...

You should learn more about lithium batteries and how electrons work.

Ray

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