BB 512i Fuel Problems | FerrariChat

BB 512i Fuel Problems

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by John Peterson, Jun 14, 2021.

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  1. John Peterson

    John Peterson Karting

    Nov 17, 2003
    80
    Montpelier, VT
    Full Name:
    John M. Peterson
    Have an '83 BBi, which I've owned since '86. Started having issues with fuel while running this past weekend. On that drive I started with the gauge at nearly 3/4. Got down to a little below 2/2. The car then started sputtering, bucking and I couldn't apply much throttle at all from a stop or especially going uphill. Got to a gas station and the car only took 15 gallons for the gauge to read full. Started driving again and had no further problems over about 140 miles. I got back home after that long and fast drive without any other issues and only added 10 gallons to the tank. The car has been running well over the last 3 days...

    As you know, there are 2 tanks holding about 32 gallons and fills from the left side. Looking at a schematic it appears that there is only one fuel pump, which is fed from the bottom of the right tank. The Boxer was definitely not out of gas, since it took only 15 gallons to bring the gauge up to 4/4!!!

    Any guidance, thoughts or recommendations would be greatly appreciated...TYVVM...Dr. John
     
  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,150
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #2 Steve Magnusson, Jun 14, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021
    No, the total BB512i OM fuel capacity is given as 24.2 gallons of which 3.3 gallons is considered the reserve -- so 20.9 gallons usable before you are into the reserve. (Ferrari listed this in a confusing way in the OM, and people often wrongly add the 3.3 to the 24.2, but that's not what Ferrari meant.)

    No, you have two CIS fuel pumps -- the terminals for the fuel pump fuses are a known trouble area that overheat (from I^2*R heating) and get melted/burned up (e.g., they can work OKish for a while from cold start-up, but then overheat and start not making good contact). Definitely something to check/inspect. Your report of bad running with still a relatively lot of fuel remaining is not a normal thing (but could be something else, too).
     
    f355spider likes this.
  3. wmuno

    wmuno Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 24, 2007
    434
    Wilmette, Illinois
    Full Name:
    Bill Muno
    Also, check the fuel filters.
     
  4. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    34,121
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    You said 15 gallons for the gauge to read full. Was the tank indeed full?

    I replace bad fuel senders fairly regularly. It may have really been out of gas.
     
  5. John Peterson

    John Peterson Karting

    Nov 17, 2003
    80
    Montpelier, VT
    Full Name:
    John M. Peterson
    Thanks for the tips folks! The car only took 15 gallons at the fill at the incident to be full. The schematic that I looked at from Euro Spares showed only 1 pump coming from the right tank I think. I'll look again to be sure. I'll definitely check the fuses and the terminals. As far as fuel capacity on further checking, what I've seen is 24 Imperial gallons or 29 US gallons, so about 15 gallons would bring the gauge to 4/4. I'll also check the filters, but will look at the fuses, etc. first.

    Thanks to all for the suggestions! I'll post again later, after I try the above. So great to have this forum...John
     
  6. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,876
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    Do not forget that there are two type of filters : the filter (ref 113977) after the pump(s) that is usually properly serviced, and a filter (ref 116404) within the tank that is usually as old as the car itself. This later filter is basically a mesh screen that protects the fuel pickup and prevent the crude to be swallowed by the pumps.

    The issue here is that if the in-tank filter is gone, the pumps do have to cope with all the crude and may starve the engine. The engine is still protected from the crude because the dirt will be captured by the thin filter which is located after the pump. The pumps however do have to cope with it which will have an impact on amp-draw (failure of the relay/fuse board) and reduced flow.

    Finally, as you do have twin fuel distributor you should (?) have twice of everything (i.e two tank filters, two pumps, two filters, two accumulators). On the diagram https://www.eurospares.co.uk/parts/ferrari/512-bbi/fuel-system/fuel-tanks-pumps-and-pipes-39395, one can clearly see the two filters in the tanks.
     
  7. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,150
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    That SPC figure is what is misleading the OP -- for simplicity, they only show 1 pump, 1 accumulator, and 1 filter (those same components that are downstream of the RH tank filter are omitted to reduce clutter in the figure), but the quantity needed of each is listed as "2" in the parts table.
     
    raemin likes this.
  8. John Peterson

    John Peterson Karting

    Nov 17, 2003
    80
    Montpelier, VT
    Full Name:
    John M. Peterson
     
  9. John Peterson

    John Peterson Karting

    Nov 17, 2003
    80
    Montpelier, VT
    Full Name:
    John M. Peterson
    Checked the fuel pump fuses and both are good. Wondering if there's some issue with the float in the right tank hanging up? Don't know if that would send a signal to the electronics or not. Years ago, when I got to low fuel, a red light would blink on the gas gauge, but that hasn't been happening with the gauge reading just below 2/2 recently. Maybe just have to wait until the belt service this Winter. Filters will be replaced then as well. No way that I can check the fuel pumps on my own... Once again the gauge reads a little less than half a tank, when the issues start. Adding only 15 gallons makes the car run fine! Thanks again...John

    Thanks also to "raemin" for the info about the in tank filters. Missed that before adding this post. Didn't know that!!! Still so much to learn about this car after owning all these years...since '86. She's been the greatest joy of my automotive life...

    PS...Avatar pic is from the FCA meet at Indy in 2005 at turn 7... That was such a great meet as well as was running at the Glen in the 90s and again in 2007 along with Road America in 2009! Daytona in 2017 was a mess with the same engine issues during a parade lap, but the car ran great the next day with a full fuel load through all the sessions. DUHHH...should have expected there being more to the picture back then.

    Once again...a heartfelt thanks to all for the replies!!!
     
  10. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,876
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    Quite easy actually: you just have to disconnect the return fuel line that gets out of the fuel distributor and sends the excess fuel to the tank. You also have to disconnect the safety switch of the distributor (both distributors do have green plugs, one is connected to a cable that you have to remove).

    Once the safety switch is disconnected the pumps will work, no matter the engine is running or not. As the engine is not running all the fuel pushed by the pump should get back to the tanks (i.e through the return line that you have disconnected). You then have to validate that the flow is approximatively 8l / 30s (on each distributors).

    You want to check the return line as this ensures that the fuel can pass through the fuel pressure regulator, so the pump is "under load".
     
  11. 020147

    020147 F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 12, 2006
    3,739
    Midwest
    I can’t be of help with your issue, but hope you get it sorted in short order! Out of curiosity @John Peterson is your BBI the same car that RPM Vermont had videos of on their YouTube channel?
     
  12. John Peterson

    John Peterson Karting

    Nov 17, 2003
    80
    Montpelier, VT
    Full Name:
    John M. Peterson
     
  13. John Peterson

    John Peterson Karting

    Nov 17, 2003
    80
    Montpelier, VT
    Full Name:
    John M. Peterson
    At long last...Bingo! My car was in for the engine-out service starting in January. Stopped over at RPM and they showed me the left interior tank filter, which you couldn't even see through! On the right side, the filter became dislodged and was interfering with the float mechanism reporting the fuel level. Was told that the internal filters are no longer available, so we'll just have to be careful with the pump filters. Thanks to all for the advice! Been well below ZERO here in VT. Can't wait to drive the Boxer again, when the salt is off the roads and the temps improve.
     
  14. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,150
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #14 Steve Magnusson, Jan 28, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2022
    Even though the stock in-tank BBi filter is not available, you should still have a coarse filter between the tank and the fuel pump inlet. This thread shows a very well made DIY metal screen filter added to the TR stock metal fitting, but others have also just wired a "sock" type filter element onto the stock metal fitting:

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/tr-in-tank-fuel-filter.602459

    Another option might be to put an inline filter in the rubber hose between the (now filterless) stock metal fitting and the fuel pump inlet (although can't say that I've ever seen one for such a large diameter hose, but I haven't looked for one either). The "roller" style pump head on the CIS fuel pumps is very intolerant to passing any hard debris.

    This pic shows how another BBi FChatter added an aftermarket filter sock to his old fittings (but I'd use a piece of metal wire to secure to the fitting it rather than a plastic zip-tie and maybe make a sort of wire metal cage to put inside the sock to help hold it open and/or drill some cross holes in the solid metal tube portion that is inside the sock):
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  15. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,876
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin

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