F355 Market

Are we talking about manual F355 coupe vs 993TT or are we not?

Fine. Here.

Total World wide production numbers:

993: 45,800

F355: 11,273

 

Well my dad can beat up your dad.

 

You guys are going about valuation all wrong. You guys will relate as this happened to me so many times before I sold my 355.

Just pull up to a gas station. A guy and his son will gawk, take pictures and then ask the same 10 questions.

Then the soccer dad who paid over a 100k for his station wagon or pick up truck says……..yep those Ferraris go for about $300,000 to $500,000 !

In all seriousness it’s been a wild ride. I remember when mint 355’s were listed at the same price as a salvage titled 355’s were selling for just one year before. Circa 2008 IIRC.

 

Give it a rest, Ken. The market sets the prices. https://www.classic.com/m/porsche/911/993/turbo/

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LOL, glad you are excited about being in the bubble.....just don’t float too close to the sun

 

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Wait until my Dad gets out of prison......dead meat

 

Fully aware 993 Turbos are currently fetching higher prices. I'm just arguing F355's "should" be fetching similar if not more. That data also includes the Turbo S, which due to very low production numbers is fetching $300-400k. F355 values won't catch the Turbo S. It should catch the Turbo at the very least.

I am merely responding to the "few" here arguing a 993 Turbo should fetch a 50%-75% premium over a manual F355 coupe because is a way better car produced in "half" the numbers because it is simply not true. At least not according to Car and Driver's raw review in 1995 and actual documented production numbers.

Arguing what car should be worth what is all fun and games. It's not an exact science. But at the very least, the argument/data quoted should be somewhat accurate.

 

Anyone here a fan of Ben Graham? If so... 2 things:

1. The market is inefficient.

2. You can always find undervalued assets... even in a bull market. Not easy, but if you can identify them, kudos to you.

 

All that matters is the market. There is a multitude of reasons why the Porsches are fetching higher prices across the board. But, unfortunately, the "should be" 355 prices are dreams. Right now, just about any air-cooled Porsche is a hot commodity, and the same can't be said for our 355s. I keep waiting...

 

Have 355 prices not gone up 50-75% in the last 10 months? Seems like a hot market to me. So hot those who missed out are filing complaints . I'm not honed into the 993 market like I am the 355 market, but that graph you linked appears to have almost stagnant prices compared to a few years back. I think the recent 4k mi F1 coupe sold 15 days after listing set a nice tone for "low" mileage F1 coupes. My guess is the car exchanged hands between $150-170k.

 

It IS true, and it IS accurate to say the 993TT was produced in roughly half the numbers a Ferrari sporting a 355 badge was. You dismissing spider and F1 cars is disingenuous.

Of course as I previously said, it isn’t the 6,000 car difference that accounts for most of the price disparity, it is the demand.

Like it or not, the 993TT is an icon that represents the end of an era at Porsche and Porsche fans recognize that.

 

Lots of cars are in the bubble, go look at Testarossa prices. Or Murcielago. Or Speciale & Pista......bubble cars are all over the place. And that includes the oil cooled Porsches.

 

You can't do technical analysis on used exotic car pricing, Ken. The number of sales in the past six months doesn't establish a market-wide trend in 355s. Regarding the Porsches, you don't know the market. The cars shot up in value a long time ago.

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When TTForce says "355 will surpass 993TT," you know damn well he was talking about manual coupes, not ALL 355's... as well as the Turbo, not the Turbo S. That's being disingenuous. All 355's vs 993TT isn't even a relevant discussion. Who cherry-picked that argument?

 

OK, even given your cherry picking, condition being equal, none of the 355 variants will ever sell at 2X 993TT prices. And for some reason, 355 owners started the comparison, which I agree is silly, it’s not relevant based on market pricing. They just share an era, that is all.

 

I've never done a technical analysis or even bothered to pull any graphs when discussing 355 values. Why? because graphs don't show miles, color combinations, condition, service history etc... All of which matters to the 355 potential buyer and what he's willing to pay for a car. Doesn't show private sales either. Looking at a 5 year graph and showing that to a potential manual GTB buyer showing an avg. selling price of $87k isn't really gonna help him much if he's trying to by a car now. Recent data would be most relevant to him. If he's a U.S buyer, U.S data. Classic.com also throws in UK cars.

 

You are completely missing the point. It is just a data set. Nothing is all-encompassing. Most good cars sell via private-treaty, not BaT, eBay, or most other publicly available auction sites. Using your logic of basing what a buyer should expect to pay on a few recent sales are faulty. If I sold my car to you cheap and published the deal, would that mean anything to the value of any other car??? What if I sold it for a new record high price??? You are using flawed reasoning.

Good cars get good money. Wat the last one sold for is fairly insignificant, IMO.

These cars aren't rare, but each one of these is unique in some way. There is a saddle for every ass out there. The market figures the rest out.

 

Well. For the record, I agree 2x 993TT is unlikely and very much on the hopeful side. I've said on here on multiple occasions... equal or surpass... and surpassed not by much. But to be 50-75% more than 355 ...

At the end of the day, I am just pointing out what the market could be missing or not realizing when evaluating these cars, and if one sees the same, then it is a great opportunity to buy what could be deemed undervalued comparatively. If you think the 993TT is that much better, then more power to you... go for those. If you felt the value was based on production numbers and thought they produced twice as many manual 355 coupes... well I just cleared that up for you. If you thought it's just a waaaay better car, well... many instances/examples/stories in this thread where owners of both cars chose to keep the 355 when both were valued the same.

Or perhaps the 993TT is valued higher simply because the buyer pool (demand) is that much higher than a 355's. Personally, I think this is the case and no matter how much I hype up the 355, this dynamic isn't going to change anytime soon.

 

OK, I’m on board with this.

I was close to buying a 993TT recently, before another icon, Ford GT stole my heart. Still hope to own one someday

 

Unlike stock exchanges, 355's don't have the volume and there's no market maker. Not only that, 355's are not equal. The closest thing we have to a true market is auctions like BAT, Pcar, etc... a place where all potential buyers examine the car and the car goes to the bidder willing to pay the most. A private sale doesn't have that. It can come close if both parties are discussing prices that transpired in auctions and coming to an agreement.


If the last price of a 15kmi red/tan GTS sold at an auction for $170k ... that matters. It is very relevant. Am I saying the next exact same spec should command that exact price? No. But within a 10-20% margin ... yes. 20% off $170k is $136k. If someone has a 15k mi red/tan GTS and wants to sell his car tomorrow... if he's willing to take $136k, I would argue the seller is more likely the fool, not the buyer. Anyone buying a red/tan GTS right now for $136k will feel he stole the car. And he would be even more estatic if he paid 20% above the "avg. selling price last 5 years", which would put the price at $105k.

It takes two to tango. Those holding the cars (potential sellers) are closely monitoring the last public sales prices (BAT, Pcar) as well and will most likely not deviate much (more than 20%) if he has a comparable car.

 

Your myopia should be checked out ASAP. I am more bored with this than @Shark01 is, Ken.

 

Marc, if you are looking to move away from your pristine F1 Berlinetta... I'd be bored too if I was looking at this graph.

https://www.classic.com/m/ferrari/f355/berlinetta/f1/


You'll feel much better negotiating off recent data, which I believe has moved in your favor .

 

Anyone who is/was in the market for a stick 355 GTS was well aware of that Pcar auction regardless of what the sites respective traffic reflects. Selling with Pcar vs BAT had absolutely no bearing on the lower than hyped sale price… it came down to what the market would pay that particular day for that particular car.

 

I used to get bashed here when I said 355s were undervalued.

I wonder how much my former white 95 GTS with 18k miles and 30k in recent service would bring now…