Electrical Explanation Requested | FerrariChat

Electrical Explanation Requested

Discussion in '308/328' started by Lawrence Coppari, Jul 27, 2021.

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  1. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    2,153
    Kingsport, TN
    Full Name:
    Lawrence A. Coppari
    The speedometer/odometer on my '87 328 GTS has quit once again. It quit in October 2020. I sent it and the sender unit to Palo Alto, CA. They said my sender unit was weak. Bought a new one. It worked until yesterday.

    I carefully took the old one (OE) Hall effect sensor apart. It is supplied with 12 V (yellow wire) and has an output line that carries the signal back to the speedometer I assume. What I do not see is how the unit connects to ground which is the surrounding brass housing that screws into the transmission. Does it not require a chassis ground? Does the sensor supply the magnetic field or is there a magnet on a spinning shaft inside the transmission.
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  2. Andretti Molletti

    Andretti Molletti Formula Junior

    Sep 19, 2010
    345
    Netherlands
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    Dré
    #2 Andretti Molletti, Jul 28, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2021
    The Hallsensor has a magnet... this has a magnetic field.. this field is disturb by tooth on the flywheel and this disturbtion is "seen" by the Hallsensor
    The Hallsensor (HS) is a semiconductor and gives a small signal... not really a signal, it makes connection (the semiconductor, just like a transistor, connectts Emittor and Collector ... the Basis is the magnitic field)
    To get a better signal there are two transistors in the compete sensor as bought. These two transistors make the signal stronger.
    you are right that its strange that there is no ground.
    I think there is not 12V going in, but 12V coming out of the speedometer and that 12V is switched to ground (brown wire??) .. the more its switched to ground in a period of time , the higher the speed i suppose?
    (sorry for my bad english)

    PS do you have a pic of the rear with the pcb layout? I see three incoming connections of the Hallsensor... 2 resistors 120 and 12k Ohm and then 2 condensators and 2 transitors.. finally a Zenerdiode... withe the PCB layout a can make a circuit diagram.

    In your schematic of your car ... where is the Yellow and where is the brown wire going to?
     
  3. Andretti Molletti

    Andretti Molletti Formula Junior

    Sep 19, 2010
    345
    Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Dré
    I took a look at the wiring diagram. One of the wires is V (green) and is the battery plus via the oil meter and a fuse. So thats power supply.
    The other one is RN and is the signal wire towards the speedo connector 1>> This wire will be 12V -0V (I think it will be higher then 0V... approx 4,7V or so... but the voltage drop 12-4,7 is enough to trigger the speedo) when driving and the frequency will depend on the speed.
    I will think over your initial question: why is it blowing up so fast? (Is you Alternator voltage when running a nice 14V? Or much higher?) (First reaction on saving the sensor is put a condensator of 10uF 12V on the V=green wire to dampen the power supply>> is you oilmeter giving a constant pointer or is it continious moving a bit?)

    (I'm typing on a Mac... how can I change to English grammar correction fast??)
    Greetings from Holland :p
     
  4. Andretti Molletti

    Andretti Molletti Formula Junior

    Sep 19, 2010
    345
    Netherlands
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    Dré
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    Here is an idea of how it can work with two wires... right of D3 the two wires to the coil are now going to your Speedometer.
    The higher one at the anode is the plus, the lower one at kathode is minus AND signal... your second transitor is for power instead of B1 in this schematic.
    (But it can also be grounded via the gearbox..) I have to see the sensor for that
     
  5. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    2,153
    Kingsport, TN
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    Lawrence A. Coppari
    Here are two pictures of the pcb which I assume means printed circuit board. There does not seem to be a permanent magnet in the sensor because I do not sense any attraction to iron filings. Could it be an electromagnet?

    Regarding the two wires, the yellow and brown, I'll check them when I get the car up on jack stands this afternoon. The little hat on the end where the wires are has a + sign on the yellow wire side and the numeral 1 on the brown wire side. This afternoon I'll check to see which on has 12V. I'm also going to check the two large couplings. One is in the passenger footwell and the other is by the coolant reservoir.
    I'm going to remove wheels so I can run the engine and check voltages.

    All the soldering connections look good to me. I have occasionally salvaged relays by re-soldering cracked connections.
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  6. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,157
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    #6 Steve Magnusson, Jul 28, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2021
    It's a magnetic reluctance device, but I believe that there is no permanent magnet involved (current flowing in a coil of wire generates the magnetic field). On the diff pinion shaft there is this 4-pole metal "trigger wheel" 116352:

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    item 2 here:

    https://www.ferrariparts.co.uk/diagram/ferrari/328-gtb-gts-(1985)/027-lay-shaft-gears

    When one of the 4 metal arc-shaped "leaves" passes close by in front of the two metal pieces protruding from the end of the 116987 sensor it changes the reluctance of the magnetic path between the two metal pieces (and the sensor generates 4 pulses for each revolution of the diff pinion shaft from this change in magnetic reluctance).

    Adrian (member alhbln) has done a bunch of work repairing, understanding, and reverse engineering the 116987 sensor. Try a search on "116987" posted by member "alhbln" for his prior threads.
     
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  7. Dave Bertrand

    Dave Bertrand Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 24, 2005
    771
    Castle Rock, CO
    I'd suggest re-flowing those solder connections even if they look okay. Failing solder joints would account for intermittent operation of the unit, and sometimes a solder joint can fail even with no visual evidence of a problem. Re-flowing is easy to do and worth a try.
     
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  8. gsholz

    gsholz Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 21, 2006
    324
    Oregon
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    Jerry
    Hall effect sensors need a constant current that is then deflected by the magnetic field to create a voltage perpendicular to the current flow. Reflowing the solder joints is a good idea, particularly where the wires attach to the board. Constant flexing can break solder joints. make sure your wires are supported.
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  9. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    2,153
    Kingsport, TN
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    Lawrence A. Coppari
    Just got through reflowing all joints on the OE sensor. I'll test both out tomorrow and see if either works after I pull the two connectors apart (engine compartment and passenger footwell) and clean them. Palo Alto speedometer repair said the OE sensor was putting out a weak signal but speedometer was OK.
     
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  10. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    2,153
    Kingsport, TN
    Full Name:
    Lawrence A. Coppari
    Neither the OE sensor, which I reflowed, nor the sensor that was purchased last fall will cause my speedometer to work. Both produce signals at the connector in the passenger footwell that change with rpm and agree with one another at idle. The signals from both sensors are observed by the AC Hertz readout on my Fluke meter. I noticed signal detection depends on polarity of the meter which was surprising.

    When I sent the speedometer and OE sensor off to Palo Alto last fall, they told me the speedometer was OK but they had to get the OE sensor really close to the spinning object to get it to work. Their speed sensor worked without a hitch. I bought a new sensor that worked until a few days ago. All other gauges work as they should. !!%$?$#
     
  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
    25,157
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Don't follow you here -- are the rear wheels rotating (signal should be present) or not rotating (signal should not be present -- maybe your Fluke meter is autoscaling and just picking up a small noise EMI signal from the ignition system)?
     
  12. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    2,153
    Kingsport, TN
    Full Name:
    Lawrence A. Coppari
    I have the rear of the car on jack stands so the wheels are rotating. But I had not considered small noise EMI signals and autoscaling. I'll check again at the sensor with no wheel rotation and engine running. It's quicker to check at sensor than getting into footwell. Thanks for thoughts.
     
  13. conan

    conan Formula Junior

    Nov 13, 2011
    389
    The transistors - what are they ? The zener is at 33V ? I guess it is meant to protect against overvoltage spikes, but maybe it has blown up and taken the transistors with it.

    Depending on fault mode in those transistors, they might still work, but not according to spec.
     
  14. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    2,153
    Kingsport, TN
    Full Name:
    Lawrence A. Coppari
    Steve, you are correct. I'm getting a 'signal' at the sensor with the wheels stationary with both the OE and sensor I purchased last fall.

    Conan, one transistor is a BC327. Have to remove it before I can read the nomenclature on the other. I'm going to look it up and find out whether it is PNP or NPN, then test it to see if it's POS.
     
  15. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    2,153
    Kingsport, TN
    Full Name:
    Lawrence A. Coppari
    I removed the two transistors and the large white capacitor. They all check out OK as far as I can tell with my meter. When I get the time I'll remove the little yellow capacitor and check it.

    Electronic components are inexpensive. Maybe I should replace them all and see if that will make it work. There is not much to replace.

    One thing I noticed prior to its completely quitting was that on the previous outing I started the car and was driving down my street. I noticed the speedometer was not registering. Then all of a sudden it jumped to a very high speed and immediately fell back to the correct speed and continued to work until the next outing when it never worked again. I can also recall a time several years ago when the speedometer exhibited the same erratic behavior but continued to work properly for a long time then quit last fall when I sent it to Palo Alto where they told me the problem was my signal generator.
     
  16. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    2,153
    Kingsport, TN
    Full Name:
    Lawrence A. Coppari
    I used my 328 for a couple of errands this morning. After some high rpm driving on the way home the speedometer suddenly began working. The pulse generator that was purchased last November is in it but the speedometer had not worked since I began this post. I'm in the process of ordering new components for the OE generator even though they all check out when removed. This is puzzling.
     
  17. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    2,153
    Kingsport, TN
    Full Name:
    Lawrence A. Coppari
    Drove the car today and the speedometer/odometer were working. Few days ago it began working after some spirited driving. Today it worked from the get go. The ordering of new electronic parts for the OE sender has been postponed.
     
  18. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    2,153
    Kingsport, TN
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    Lawrence A. Coppari
    I drove the car again a little while ago, and it is still working.
     
  19. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,157
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    Welcome to the club -- my speedometer stopped working about 5 months ago so I bought a new 116987 sensor (which I had replaced once before about 10-15 years ago) thinking I'll just replace it again as the first "fix". Next day, it started working again, and has been fine since. Can't fix it if ain't broken -- but I'm prepared ;).
     
  20. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    2,153
    Kingsport, TN
    Full Name:
    Lawrence A. Coppari
    Welcome to my world...
     
  21. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,662
    San Carlos, CA
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    Mitchell Le
    My speedo stopped working. It would start working again as I drive by a Lexus dealership on the freeway as if it were saying "please don't trade me in." It continued doing that for a few months until I changed the sensor and then all was well. And then my tach started displaying half speed. I removed it and "adjusted" it to be much more enthusiastic. And of course, the fuel pump died soon after.
     
  22. theunissenguido

    theunissenguido Formula 3
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jan 21, 2004
    2,372
    Argent/Brasil
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    Guido
    What I told before...its a full time job to keep our cars on the road. :D
     

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