2021 Saudi Arabian GP: Post Race Analysis | FerrariChat

2021 Saudi Arabian GP: Post Race Analysis

Discussion in 'F1' started by SS454, Dec 5, 2021.

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  1. SS454

    SS454 Formula 3

    Oct 28, 2021
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    Chris S
    One of the craziest and dirtiest races in recent Formula 1 history. Commenting initially on the new track, it has to be said it is pretty impressive watching an F1 car do a lap on maximum attack. Extremely fast, and quite narrow so it looks spectacular and the drivers seem to enjoy it. However, almost everyone could see how dangerous this track is, especially when a bunch of cars are on track at the same time. It was evident in the first F2 race that the vehicle recovery was appalling and no improvements were made for the Formula 1 race as 2 red flags took an extended amount of time.

    As for the race itself, the FIA can claim how the fans won by seeing such an eventful race, but any true race fan has to be disturbed by how much the FIA play a result in each race, and of course the championship.

    Mercedes came in as the favorites, and perhaps left as even stronger favorites. The perfect start had Mercedes controlling the race, Bottas doing a perfect job in keeping Verstappen behind but not losing touch with Lewis, all until the inevitable safety car was deployed. Bottas clearly deliberately slowing down Max is supposedly against the rules, yet didn't even get noted. Some bad luck hit Mercedes when a Red Flag was called late, thus allowing the Red Bull to have a free change of tires. It's one of the stupidest rules in F1 to allow a team to repair a car and/or change tires during a Red Flag. It should be said, the Red Flag was the right call, as the barriers were compromised in a spot where several accidents have happened during the weekend. Fortunately for Mercedes, they were able to get good starts, particularly Hamilton who might have had the best start in history off the dirty side of the track. This may have partially been because of Mercedes deliberately driving slow to the grid, causing Max's tires to cool down. Was this illegal? Maybe not as supposedly the drive to the second restart was technically not labeled a "formulation lap". Lewis clearly had the lead into turn 1 which gives him right to the driving line. What was never mentioned was Lewis never even attempted to take the driving line, he missed the apex by a mile turning into the middle of the corner, and straight-lining his car to the turn 2 inside curb. No matter what this would have left Max with no place to go, but did jump the curb and took the lead off the track so it isn't surprising he was forced to give the position back. However, we saw a worse situation with Stroll taking a position off track on lap 1 despite having more room than Max did, and it was ruled okay. It could be argued that Masi should have restarted the race under the safety car rather than a standing start given pretty much every start between F1 and F2 has caused accidents, but I suppose it is preferred to do a standing restart. Fast forward to when Lewis collided with Verstappen. Very strange, and its seems very likely that the drivers were playing games. Regardless, Verstappen initially slowed down in a controlled fashion, Lewis admitted he saw that and his onboard even shows him braking and downshifting behind Max. Why did he not go by? For all he knew, Max had an engine problem. Any race car driver will blow by a slowing car without hesitation, unless there is a flag or instruction to stay behind. There was absolutely no reason for Hamilton to follow Verstappen's path and slow down the same. If Verstappen's telemetry proves he did not deliberately and abruptly brake check Hamilton, then Lewis should in fact be given a penalty for causing a collision. Mercedes still should be confident as even with a damaged car, Hamilton was easily able to put in the fastest lap of the race. Bottas, seemed to get the full power on the last lap and was able get in there for a hugely valuable podium.

    Red Bull will leave Saudi Arabia with a bitter taste without a doubt. First throwing away pole in the last corner. The free pitstop for brand new hard tires and restarting first, just to throw that away on the launch. Getting a second chance, this time with mediums and Max amazingly going from P3 to P1 only to have that fall apart. Such a shame for Perez who did a miserable job in Q3 and just bad luck in the race. Was Verstappen over the line? Perhaps. Absolutely extremely aggressive. The 5 second penalty seemed harsh and very unclear as to why it was given. Max overtook off track on the first restart, but gave the position back. Max defended his P1 position by forcing Lewis off track, but unquestionably made the attempt to allow Hamilton by, in which Lewis failed to just drive by him. After being clubbed in the back, Max still allowed Lewis to go by in which he immediately overtook him again. To me this is well within the rules based on where the DRS detection zones were placed, should not fault the driver for being clever. Besides, Lewis left the inside open. Either way, Max allowed Lewis by later anyways. So why the penalty? It wasn't for brake checking as that is under investigation. If Max is proven to be guilty of a brake check, he will deserve a post race penalty, even if that collision could have been avoided by Lewis not driving up the backend of Max's car. All of this may be moot as it seems like Verstappen's medium tires were not going to last the whole race anyways. But how much was that down to damages caused in the collision. Of course Christian Horner will claim there was plenty of damage.

    Alpine so close to another podium. A brilliant drive by Ocon. Some will say he should have defended Lewis harder, but fighting the inevitable would have only hurt his race. Alonso was a magician in the opening laps but lost his mojo and struggled for the rest of the race.

    Mclaren got a strong result with Ricciardo. Keeping Bottas behind for so many laps was a good effort. Lando seemed to get caught out by the Red Flags and just never had the track position. Still was able to get a point though.

    AlphaTauri and Gasly in P6? No way! Back to form for him. Tsunoda crashing and ruining someone else's race. Back to form for him too.

    Ferrari won't be happy with a 7-8 finish. The car was much better than that. The safety car and red flags hurt their positioning too. Some teammate battle showed up but the team shut that down and tried to get the lead Ferrari to move forward and it just never worked out. Credit to Sainz for scoring good points from a bad starting position, but definitely benefited from some other's misfortune.

    Alfa Romeo in the points with Giovinazzi finishing 9th. Managed to get his car into Q3 so deserving for sure. Tough day for Kimi as it seemed like Vettel drove through him into the corner.

    Aston Martin had a qualifying session to forget, so P11 for Stroll can be somewhat satisfying, but it's not points. Vettel was looking really good at one point until he was taken out by Tsunoda and then slid his way into Kimi which ultimately scattered enough parts all over the track to force a DNF.

    Williams didn't look very good in the race. Latifi had his best chance at a good result with so many cars out of the race, but P12 was all he could do.

    Haas had some scary crashes. Mazepin crashing into Russell showed the dangers of such a narrow track. Schumacher didn't appear to make a mistake, it just seemed like the car didn't have the rear grip with the full fuel load. Expensive day for them.

    Driver of the Day: Esteban Ocon. Despite the pure speed of the leaders, they both drive dirty at times and made mistakes. Ocon however was clean and did the best he could in a car that should have fell well outside the top 5. A few meters from getting a podium, a well earned DOTD.
     
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  2. Nurburgringer

    Nurburgringer F1 World Champ

    Jan 3, 2009
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    "The full verdict from the stewards read: “At turn 21, the driver of Car 33 [Verstappen] was given the instruction to give back a position to car 44 and was told by the team to do so “strategically”. Car 33 slowed significantly at turn 26. However, it was obvious neither driver wanted to take the lead prior to DRS detection line 3.

    “The driver of Car 33 stated he was wondering why Car 44 [Hamilton] had not overtaken and the driver of Car 44 stated that, not having been aware at that stage that Car 33 was giving the position back, was unaware of the reason Car 33 was slowing. In deciding to penalise the driver of Car 33, the key point for the Stewards was that the driver of Car 33 then braked suddenly (69 bar) and significantly, resulting in 2.4g deceleration."

    https://www.planetf1.com/news/lewis-hamilton-max-verstappen-stewards-saudi-arabia/
     
  3. werewolf

    werewolf F1 World Champ
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    if i may copy from another thread:
    Max was not driving "erratically" (as claimed by the stewards), by braking after a long period slowing. Braking during slowing is not unexpected, and therefore it is not "erratic".
    Hamilton, however, was in clear violation of the sporting regs, by driving "unnecessarily slowly" ... and this inexplicable violation, by Hamilton, directly caused the collision.
     
  4. absostone

    absostone F1 Veteran
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    LULU had approx 6 to 7 seconds to pass. Watch the vid
     
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  5. werewolf

    werewolf F1 World Champ
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    Why was Hamilton ... following a car he knew to be "slowing" ... "on-throttle, again, just before contact"?

    Look at the throttle and brake data for BOTH drivers ... knowing that Hamilton was behind a slowing car ... and ask yourself: which driver was driving "erratically", in clear violation of the sporting regs?
     
  6. Nurburgringer

    Nurburgringer F1 World Champ

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    The issue isn't Max's "lifting at the beginning of the straight" (technically still in the turn), it's Max's braking from over 300kph to 100kph while just slightly off dead center of a very narrow part of the track.
    "Strategically" giving up the position pretty clearly meant trying to force Lewis to go past before the start of the DRS zone (giving Max the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't trying to take Lewis out), so he'd have not only DRS but also a tow down the straight.



    Amazing that both cars were able to continue.
     
  7. lagunacc

    lagunacc F1 Rookie
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    Spot on regarding the Max / LH / MB / RB / FIA duel.

    Ocon passed LH on the restart the same way Max did and would have had to give the place back per the FIA nonsense.
    LH pushed both Ocon and Max off the track, so no reason to give the place back.
     
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  8. werewolf

    werewolf F1 World Champ
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    Does Hamilton understand that he MUST leave room for an "alongside" driver on the track, even if he is "ahead"?

    Or does that rule just not apply to Hamilton ...
     
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  9. SS454

    SS454 Formula 3

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    The problem with the official FIA report, the onboard videos, and the internet telemetry is that it doesn't show at what point this 69 bar of brake pressure was applied. That's far more important than the 2.4g figure they throw out. Max decelerated from 304 kph to 108 in a very short distance. Just lifting off the throttle at 300 kph will result in well over 1g of deceleration. 2.4g is less than half the braking capabilities of an F1 car and that could have been a spike the moment Verstappen applied the brakes at around 300 kph.

    To be considered a brake check, Max's telemetry would have to show a significant brake pressure spike just before being hit by Hamilton. We don't have that information. We do know Max was in the process of braking, and Lewis Hamilton accelerated just moments before colliding which would affect the closing rate between the cars which was very very close as Hamilton chose to effectively "tail gate" Max. We also didn't see any brake lock up from either car, which is quite easy to do at speeds below 160 kph. Obviously Lewis' brakes wouldn't lock up as he was in the process of accelerating.

    Neither driver can be considered innocent here.

    What is annoying to hear is people claiming Lewis was confused and maybe thought it was a Safety car or VSC. Sorry, that's ridiculous. There was no yellow lights on the wall, no yellow flag, no warning light on his dash, and no message from his team. Hamilton had a good 7 seconds to recognize that Max was slowing down and that there was no signs of a caution being out. Any F1 driver is capable of making decisions in fractions of a second, someone as experienced as Lewis surely could make a conscious decision of what to do in those 7 seconds.
     
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  10. Phil~

    Phil~ F1 Rookie
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    Lewis slowed because Verstappen was still largely in the middle of the track.

    He wasn’t harvesting and he didn’t pull to the side.

    Since Hamilton didn’t known about the decision to give the place back, he decided to wait for further information.

    Why? Easy. Look at it from his perspective. One debilitating crash and his WDC hopes are dead. He knows Verstappen is an aggressive driver, doubly so under these circumstances.

    He just didn’t expect Ver to jab the brakes.

    In Maxs defense, Hamilton’s driving probably seemed strange to him because he was under the assumption that Lewis knew about the order to pass.
     
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  11. werewolf

    werewolf F1 World Champ
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    Using:

    Acceleration = [(initial velocity)^2 - (final velocity)^2]/(2*distance)

    Decelerating from 300kph to 100kph in the space of 300 meters (taken from the graph, above) yields a deceleration of 10.288 m/sec/sec ... just a tad over 1G (9.8m/sec/sec). So we know that BOTH cars were decelerating at just over 1G, for several seconds before the collision. Could be from lifting, as you suggested. When did max briefly hit 2.4G of braking? Hard to tell, from the info we have.

    But we do know that Hamilton applied throttle and accelerated toward Max, just before he hit Max.
     
  12. ferrariforevervp

    Sep 22, 2006
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    "Bottas clearly deliberately slowing down Max is supposedly against the rules, yet didn't even get noted. "

    There is no rule against this because the safety car was still catching the cars, so Bottas was allowed to do this
     
  13. Nurburgringer

    Nurburgringer F1 World Champ

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    Whatever Max was thinking, Hamilton definitely should have been told BEFORE Max that he was getting the position back. That way he could have anticipated some kind of unusual slowing by Max.
    Can the FIA talk with drivers during the race, or only their team?

    Clearly Lewis didn't hit Max on purpose. Whether or not Max wanted to take Lewis out, the question remains that in the absence of yellow flags, a big crash ahead, or clear mechanical failure i.e. blown engine spewing smoke, is slowing from 300 to 100kph near the center of the track at the beginning of a straightaway an acceptable way to "give back a position"? I'm not seeing how it is.
     
  14. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
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    I don’t Max would’ve been too opposed to a double-DNF finish.

    Max was instructed to cede the position some four corners earlier. Guess he was waiting for the most strategic part of the lap to do so (DRS detection zone-wise). Once contact was made, Max sure didn’t waste any time sticking around - - he instantly accelerated away full throttle.
     
  15. lagunacc

    lagunacc F1 Rookie
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    LH's solution to that dilemma - crash into Max.


    The track is 15 meters wide.

    Hopefully Max turns the "danger" up a few notches and goes into the "Senna zone" and cures LH's "confusion"
     
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  16. werewolf

    werewolf F1 World Champ
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    #17 werewolf, Dec 6, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2021
    For all Hamilton knew ... Verstappen was experiencing an engine or gearbox problem, causing him to slow down. Not being told of Red Bull's decision to give the place back was no excuse for driving into the back of a slowing Verstappen, when there was plenty of room, and time, to pass .... just as you would, if the driver in front were experiencing a mechanical problem causing him to slow down.
    Actually, the data now shows that Hamilton DID hit Max on purpose (just as i've been saying, all along). Verstappen was clearly slowing for several seconds, Hamilton knew it and inexplicably remained behind. Just before the crash, Hamilton applied throttle to accelerate into Verstappen (see post #5, above). Couldn't be more clear evidence of an intentional collision, caused by Hamilton.
     
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  17. johnireland

    johnireland F1 Veteran
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    There are no clean hands in this race. Lewis, Max, Massi and the FIA...and the two teams...all smell like 3 day old fish.
     
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  18. WPOZZZ

    WPOZZZ F1 Veteran

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    New rule from the FIA. No give backs in the DRS detection zone.
     
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  19. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

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    It's very clear from the official statement that the penalty was for the Second part of slowing down the car by braking @ 2.4 G which is about half what you would do at the end of a fast long straight like Monza.

    Its all about the DRS line ,Max slowed down by lifting and changing down to 3rd at first but Lewis didn't take the bait and did the same ,at this point MAD MAX thought "**** this" and hit the brakes properly to try and force Lewis to avoid/pass him before they reached the DRS zone.

    Some may say Max wanted to take Lewis out , some not .

    Anyhow Max didn't lose anything for his actions and as he has stated many many times he will not change his driving style for anyone ...so we can expect more fireworks in AD.

    Max has serious anger management issues ,yes he is a very talented driver but imho not worthy of WDC with his un sportsman like behaviour on, and off, track ,Flame away..
     
  20. Etcetera

    Etcetera Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Max will end up giving this season's WDC away and learn nothing from it.
     
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  21. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    Good end this silly season and move to the new cars/aero. Max can have this. LH can have this = world turns anyway. Just end it. Put on the evening wear and get your trophy in Monaco lol. WOW! The glitz and glamour lol :)

    The Stewards and FIA need to re-group over the winter and sort out the series, rules and driving standards.
     
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  22. Isobel

    Isobel F1 World Champ

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  23. Ferrari 308 GTB

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    Yep just before he ran out of talent :D
     
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