An interesting electrical puzzle | FerrariChat

An interesting electrical puzzle

Discussion in '206/246' started by mar3kl, Nov 29, 2021.

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  1. mar3kl

    mar3kl Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2011
    454
    Silicon Valley
    Full Name:
    Mark
    My car had a couple of electrical issues recently, which led me down the path of checking all the wiring at the fuse panel. While I was there, I discovered something puzzling I'm hoping one of you can shed light on. I have an April 1973 Euro car, 06236. The wiring at the fuse panel appears to be almost entirely original and in very good condition. In addition to the horn, lighting, and radiator fan relays, I have a mystery extra relay, visible at the far lower right of the attached photo. It's a Sipea brand, with standard DIN terminal markings for an SPST relay. It looks of an age with the other relays, as do the wiring, connectors, and connector covers. So I can't know for sure, but it seems factory, or at least "old", and not obviously hacked together by some subsequent owner. I had always thought it was an alternator relay, but it turns out it's an odd radiator fan relay.

    The radiator fan relay at the top right is a standard Lucas 6RA SPST relay. W1 (DIN 85) looks like switched power, yellow wire, W2 (DIN 86) is connected to the heat switch at the radiator, green wire. C1 (DIN 30) is a red wire coming from the radiator fan fuse, and the C2s (DIN 87 and 87b) are each connected to a blue wire. One of those blue wires heads directly to a radiator fan, but the other goes to the 87b terminal of the mystery Sipea relay.

    The mystery Sipea relay at the bottom right has terminals as follows: 85 connected to a cream colored wire that disappears into the main harness at the firewall. 86 is ground. 30 connects to the passenger side radiator fan. 87b connects to the radiator fan fuse, just like the main radiator fan relay C1 (DIN 30) terminal. 87 connects to a blue wire that ends at the Lucas relay C2 (DIN 87) terminal.

    The behavior is such that when the Lucas relay is energized, both fans turn on. If only the Sipea relay is energized, only the passenger side fan turns on. But I don't know what's energizing the Sipea relay and why there's the odd blue wire connection between the main fan relay C2 (DIN 87) and Sipea relay 87 terminal.
    I haven't done further digging - any ideas what problem this design is trying to solve, and why it bears no resemblance to my 1973 Euro owner's manual wiring diagram or any other wiring diagram I've seen?
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  2. dgt

    dgt Formula 3
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jan 14, 2011
    1,283
    Northeast, USA & Oz
    Full Name:
    Andrew
    Hi Mark,
    I've only ever seen the heavy gauge blue wire go from the radiator fan relay to both fans as one wire connected in series to the +ve wire on the fans.
    I suspect someone added this extra relay, maybe the original relay was getting too hot or the wiring failed so they ganged up a new relay with a new wire - could be anything really.
    It's not clear if the single fan running is an operational mode?
    Seems like both turn on like normal when the thermoswitch activates, I'd be inclined to remove it and check the original relay is good.
    regards, Andrew
     
  3. mar3kl

    mar3kl Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2011
    454
    Silicon Valley
    Full Name:
    Mark
    I've done some more debugging. Both the main Lucas relay and the mystery Sipea relay work correctly. Each radiator fan has its own power wire; they aren't in series. The two relays are ganged together but in such a way that the passenger side fan can run independently via the mystery relay. The passenger side fan gets power either from the main relay or from B+. The really odd thing is that the mystery relay's DIN 85 signal line doesn't seem to matter. I unplugged it and both fans still came on when the main relay was energized. That makes no sense - the whole point of a relay is that it doesn't switch power without a signal, right? In any case, It looks perfectly straightforward to remove the mystery relay and connect passenger side fan power to the main relay's second C2 terminal. But I'm reluctant to do it without knowing why that second relay's there. It looks awfully intentional: Italian relay, Italian connector covers, wiring from the harnesses. It would help to know what the other end of the DIN 85 wire is connected to, but it's one of many, many wires heading into the firewall and tracing it will be challenging.
     
  4. npwmd2

    npwmd2 Karting

    Mar 31, 2015
    226
    Hudson Valley
    Full Name:
    Neal
    Mark,
    04124 1972 USA GTS. Original owner. No modifications. Seems to be many more relays on the US models. More importantly, my radiator fans work the same way. The passenger fan only can remain on for minutes after the other shuts down. Must be to conserve battery, I presume!
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  5. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,156
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Does your car have air conditioning? Haven't looked at the (hateful to use ;)) WSM to see if it has anything about this issue, but many F models, where the AC condensor and coolant radiator are mounted together in airflow series, have an electrical architecture using multiple relays where:

    1. If the coolant is hot = both radiator fans run regardless of the AC system status, but

    2. If the coolant is cold, and the AC system is "on" = only one radiator fan runs.

    If you've got AC, it would be easy to test -- at cold start-up, turn on the AC and see if just one radiator fan runs.
     
  6. mar3kl

    mar3kl Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2011
    454
    Silicon Valley
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    Mark
    I wondered about that, but the wiring doesn’t make sense yet. I’m still trying to figure out how the Lucas relay can activate the Sipea relay while the latter’s 85 terminal has no power, which appears to be the case. I must be missing something. It’s like the Lucas relay can switch the Sipea relay on but the Sipea relay can switch itself off. Very odd. And so far it seems like a unique setup. The car is an Italian market car, so I wonder whether early in its life an official service place went to some trouble to put this together. The wiring looks quite nice. If any of you have Euro cars after 06236 with this setup, raise your hands…
     
  7. GermanDino

    GermanDino F1 Rookie

    Aug 14, 2007
    3,419
    Germany
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    Matthias
    #7 GermanDino, Dec 1, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
    same set up.... Euro LHD GTS #06830 (Italian market delivery)
    only difference I can see is, that the black cable goes into the first connection of the red fuse box, not second as with your car....

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  8. GermanDino

    GermanDino F1 Rookie

    Aug 14, 2007
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    Matthias
  9. mar3kl

    mar3kl Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2011
    454
    Silicon Valley
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    Mark
    I don't have A/C, so it's not A/C related.

    The front two red fuse box inputs have a connecting conductor underneath, so it doesn't matter which one the black wire connects to. The remaining wiring looks identical to mine (and different in various annoying ways from all the wiring diagrams I've seen).

    This is very interesting! Two Italian market cars with the same relay setup, so likely factory-installed. But nothing on the wiring diagram, nor how the system really works.
     
  10. GermanDino

    GermanDino F1 Rookie

    Aug 14, 2007
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    Matthias
    definitively factory setup... I have seen it on many cars.....
     
  11. mar3kl

    mar3kl Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2011
    454
    Silicon Valley
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    Mark
    Any idea how the system works? Otherwise I have a weekend of fun with a multimeter ahead of me. I hate unsolved puzzles.
     
  12. GermanDino

    GermanDino F1 Rookie

    Aug 14, 2007
    3,419
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    Matthias
    not really.... but detailed pictures sent to you.....
     
  13. mar3kl

    mar3kl Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2011
    454
    Silicon Valley
    Full Name:
    Mark
    After a bunch of time with a multi-meter and a circuit tracer I think I know how the fan relays work. Looks like my car is pre-wired for A/C even though it isn't installed, and the second radiator fan relay behaves as Steve Magnusson described above. I toned out the wire from the Sipea relay's DIN 85 terminal and it ends in the center console. When it's carrying 12 volts and the ignition switch is on, the passenger side fan runs. When the radiator coolant switch grounds and the ignition switch is on, both fans run. Seems overly complex if you don't have A/C, but probably cheaper to assemble the electrics one way. And of course no mention of this feature in any factory wiring diagram I can find. Thanks for the suggestions and photos - very helpful.
     
  14. obelix

    obelix Rookie

    Apr 24, 2004
    10
    British Columbia,Can
    Apropos to this discussion,I have been wrestling with the wiring of my Dino 04810 US model,which I have totally rebuilt.Unfortunately I did not take photos of the wiring and connections to the relays.The wiring diagrams do not show wiring colours.I saw on line a Factory Workshop Manual for the Dino plus Wiring but was not able to get it.They gave me my money back!
    Does anyone have such a manual or detailed photos of the wiring to the relays so that I can sort this car out
     
  15. HMB-Dino

    HMB-Dino Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 28, 2010
    2,173
    Pebble Beach, CA
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    RonG
    Not sure if this is what you're looking for...
     

    Attached Files:

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  16. mar3kl

    mar3kl Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2011
    454
    Silicon Valley
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    Mark
    That has colors but they don’t bear resemblance to actual wire colors, they are just to differentiate between circuits. Actual colors varied over production - your best bet is to find someone with a build date near yours and get photos.
     
  17. obelix

    obelix Rookie

    Apr 24, 2004
    10
    British Columbia,Can
    Yes that is really good ,thank you so much, Obelix
     
  18. jselevan

    jselevan Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,873
    I suspect that this is related to the AC system. Some years ago, perhaps 2003-2008, I posted on Ferrarichat a Dino wiring diagram with color coding. I had removed my wiring harness from my 02900 U.S. coupe during restoration and rebuilt (rewired) a new harness. During the process I documented all of the connections and wire color schemes. It is likely posted somwhere, or one of the participants on this forum has it. The relay that you refer to in your photograph is definitely factory. I will try to find it and comment further is it sheds any light on your conundrum.

    Jim S.
     

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