Yes, May 25th, confirmed by my dealer here in Europe.
I love the coupe I find it really beautiful but I always find it lacking something, maybe this "Cielo" version will just make me fall in love.
Saw my first one actually out on the road today, as opposed to in a showroom, it took a while. This was Image Unavailable, Please Login on the autostrada west of Genoa: look in my mirror.
Amazing chassis stiffness because of the CF tub along with a Low Low COG make it a beast at the track. Next going to add some negative camber and take off those 300 hardness tires and put on some 100 hardness tires. Also going to drop 33 pounds with an antigravity lithium battery. Next track day is this Friday with Porsche club. Boy are they going to be in shock when their GT3RS and GT2RS cars seem slow
How do you figure, every track time I've seen a regular non RS GT3, is significantly faster than the MC20?- https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/dtl5gnsskeh8 Imagine how much faster a Gt3RS or Gt2RS will be than a MC20 equal drivers. Unless I'm missing something? I would be happy if the MC20 could even match a 911 turbo(which is can't), that would quite a feat- https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a39574054/2022-maserati-mc20-vs-2021-porsche-911-turbo-s-lightweight-compared/
Well the fact that you think fastest laps is completely accurate speaks volumes. Sorry but I think we’re operating on different levels. I beat RS cars in my Alfa family sedan moderately modded. Here’s who I am who are you? MC20 is brutal at the racetrack …. there will be many German tears https://www.clubalfa.it/358060-alfa-romeo-giulia-quadrifoglio-vs-porsche?fbclid=IwAR0HoiePviFISoK5EaGL81iuDaLzvGPymW4dKmwYj4RYhepUeO3GBf5WuP8
No need to be defensive, I'm just speaking objectively from the numbers I have seen, which are not even close. Happy to be wrong if you can show me some examples where the MC20 or the Alfa(which I own as you can see in my avatar, 2o22 QV) is faster on any track than a Gt3RS or GT2RS or even a 911 turbo or a non RS GT3. Look at the Nurburgring times between a alfa QV(again which I own and love) which is 7:32 and Gt3(6:54) or GT2rs(6:43), do you not understand how substantial that time difference is or is? And yes the nurbringring times do mean a little something in the world of performance cars. I have owned a 991 GT3 and tracked it extensively, I currently own a 2022 Alfa Romeo QV which I have not tracked but I know without question, there is NO WAY IN HELL my Alfa QV could come close to the times I put down with my GT3. Again I love my Quad, by I am based and live in reality. The MC20 looks like a beautiful car and for sure quick but even looking at its numbers(0-60, 1/4 mile ect versus the GT cars), its heavier weight, is much less track focused nature than a GT3 or GT2, and the fact that times on multiple tracks has shown it much slower than than both GT cars, how am I supposed to believe it going to make a GT car seem slow as you state? Who knows, maybe I am missing something but my opinion comes from currently owning a QV which you say is faster than a GT car, as well as having owned a GT3 and 911 turbo(which absolutely annihilates my QV by the way). I still prefer my QV over my 911 turbo though but not because I'm going to pretend its faster. Oh, I see you are new here with just three posts, perhaps you are just stirring the pot, which doesn't matter to me, go right at it.
Ok you are Alfista…good job! Then you know that Alfas are not quite ready for prime time from the factory you have to change the brakes pads at least before you go to the racetrack. I suspect they put those really soft pads in there because of the break by wire system they don’t want people to complain. And few people track cars anyway. I turned my Alfa Giuila QV into a wide body that I designed myself. It now has 305‘s on the front and 325 is on the rare stock motor just ECU tune, exhaust and intake. And I change the coil overs brakes added aerodynamics throughout the body. Amazingly it’s a fantastic daily driver so easy to drive in smooth and natural mode but when I dial it up it becomes a beast. I did a 129.1 in it about a week ago on takeoff racing slicks. Here’s a video of it at a different race track about a week ago against a GT 3 cup car on full racing slicks with a very competent driver I also have a lightly modded Alfa Stelvio QV that beats Porsche two door sports cars! Yes fast laps is frustrating some tracks it’s quite accurate other ones horrible. There’s more than just power to weight ratio although that’s huge. Like my post said the MC 20 has a very nice stiff carbon fiber chassis and it has very good low COG. It also has quite a bit of suspension travel. All of these things help overcome the more obvious things people look at. All I know is I took it to the track for the first time because I just got the car and bone stock it was stupid fast. By my 10th lap I had already gone faster than I’ve ever gone there before. And I laid down a extremely fast lap for that race track. And remember my car is bone stock with 300 hardness tires and only -1° camber both front and rear. The most expensive fastest drivers in full on race cars only on full racing slicks go a few seconds faster than my 1:29.0 laptime. The only type of car that can really go noticeably faster is the open wheel formula Atlantic cars. And I’m quite sure when I put my 100 hardness tires that are 10 mm wider and I get proper camber like -3 in front and -2 in the rear I’ll probably do 1:26s This Friday there’s a Porsche club half tracking day they’ll be some very good drivers and some very fast expensive cars there I will see how I do!! I’m a good driver and I know cars quite well I was shocked how quickly I could drive this car so fast! that’s a really good sign! Don’t underestimate the power of a stiff carbon fiber tub, great suspension and low COG! Here’s really the best laptimes I can find anywhere about this track. Hold the records because the tracks been closed for a few years but look at some of these cars they’re ridiculous fast racecars with professional drivers. Some of these lap holders are now professional racers. And I’m keeping up with them in my production car! https://www.icscc.com/forums/threads/lap-records-nwms-spokane-county-raceway.3134/ FA 7/13/2013 Blair Robertshaw 01.22.965 (Formula Atlantic: open wheel car) GT2 7/16/2011 Joe White 01:27.208 (620 hp 3,050 lb stock) SPO 5/31/2014 Randy Blaylock 1:26.289 (SPO:ground pounders) SPM 5/30/2014 Michael McAleenan 1:27.353 Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I appreciate AI's enthusiasm! The MC20 is a damn competent car. It is a car with an excellent technical basis which was tuned with the help of Dallara. There is no question that many established super sports cars with significantly more power will be surprised how well the MC20 will hold its own at the front. Because let's be honest; we're talking about sports cars with about 600hp and more. In this region, sheer engine power is becoming less and less important, in this region you can say: engine power is present more than enough, other values count, technical details, balance, fine tuning and driving skills count. Regarding the Nürburgring lap times: take a close look. These times are driven with the help of huge racing teams.
Thanks and you really do understand modern high Hp performance sports cars. The power is so high and cars are so fast now there’s a lot more than just power to weight ratio when it comes to the road corse. In addition to the things I mention I’m really appreciating my electronic differential. It was optional but I’ve been reading up on it and remembering how it felt and it really is amazing. I was wondering how I was able to put so much power down with relatively narrow (305) tires and especially since they’re quite hard at 300 hardness. I really think that option electronic differential I ordered it with does a great job. I had a highly modded Alfa 4C a few years back and I had forgotten how nice that stiff carbon fiber tub is. It really makes the car so solid and handle so flat. This MC 20 seems like a mash between a close to formula one car and a really smooth grand touring car. It’s hard to really express the car is just so planted and the acceleration is so linear. It just mashes you against the back of the seat but there’s no jerking around and before you know it you’re in triple digits. But you wouldn’t know it from the ride but when you look out the window you go woah! Also the braking is excellent for not only slowing the car down but for trail braking, rotation and pre-loading the springs. I’m so excited to get a better alignment with more negative camber and sticky tires I was doing 158mph+ last tracking I’ll be over 160mph next time. Plus better braking with the softer tires. Image Unavailable, Please Login
As much as I appreciate your skills in your Alfa - every Porsche GT2RS, RS3RS etc. leaves you in the dust with a good driver behind its wheel. The car alone does not bring up track times, no matter in the USA or on the very demanding Nürburgring - its always the combination of a good driver and a good car. Even a very good driver can be quite fast in a slower car - but, hey, a 2 or 3RS are a real challenge. The Porsche test drivers are by far the very best in the business as they -together with the engineers in Stuttgart- squeezes more and more out of every new version of their 911-concept. They never would bring out a car that can be beaten by an Alfa...
Image Unavailable, Please Login yeah the cult mind control is strong with the Porsche peeps We really don’t care about the hype…..we care about the driving feeling and looking at the sexy beautiful cars looks And yes Alfas are just as fast or faster with some small simple mods and at half the price So all 6 GT3RS drivers in A group at the big HOD event were slow… look at you you’re eating your own Are you wearing your fire suit as you type this?
You compare the heavy Panamera with the lighter Alfa??? Strange... We don`t talk about any price tag here on any car. Ad - we are talking about these cars how they left the factory and not about "simple mods"... My advise: come to the old Nürburgring and lean some lessons (from some guys there, driving cheaper and slower cars than any Alfa).....
Well it’s becoming clear with the problem is we’re operating on different levels. Here’s some education for you, really good drivers are very consistent in their lap times. You might find some hack in an RS that says “wow I did this really hot laptime once” (probably on brand new tires LOL). But the real deal drivers their lap times are very very close and consistent. Also before you type statements (that affect your credibility) you should really check and see what a fast laptime is at a race track before you say they’re not fast. 1:52s and 1:53s at ORP are very fast for production cars on the street tires!
Show me any modern Porsche that has anywhere near the beauty of this Italian goddess. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
After approx. 500 laps on the old Nürburgring with much different cars you must not "educate" me at all.
No you didn’t and I wasn’t accusing you of that I just was pointing out how beautiful it was compared to any modern P car. Relax take a test drive in an MC20
Simply stunning. As to why a Gt3 can be faster, theres 500lbs weight difference, and as you know past a certain point more power is but small compensation for being able to really maintain pace through corners( assuming one has the skill). Its why as you said a formula atlantic is so quick, weight. At 3700 lbs even if your brakes can last, tires are simply not going to last as well as a much lighter car. Sure if you're really pushing it, you can swap tires and pads at midday, and keep pace for a price. But even then after 30 mins out if youre at full pace its not gonna get real greasy. To a certain extent that can be said about any road car. Ive seen the mercedes amg black whatever that 2 door is set an amazing pace and even sustain it for 5 laps whic was ipressive. Those huge Ceramic rotors and really good r compounds really set a blistering pace, for 5 laps, and Im sure the car driven more moderately could set a respectable pace for 15, but thats not the name of the game. To me the Mc20 is the Italains exotic version of a C8 vette. Its certainly more exotic than the vette, and its looks are in another universe, but its a workable useable car, more than comfy enough, that can also dance on track on occasion and clearly can set a blitering pace. But it does not strike me as a tool nearly as honed as a Gt porche, nor is this iteration intended to be. i can forsee them maybe losing a few hundred pounds and focusing the car a bit more. But its also sorta like a maclaren in that while you have the Cf tub giving stiffness and allowing the suspesion to work, that cf tub did not translate into lightness. i do get that with the great balance, and e diff the car will work 4 tires more evenly so for the weight they can last better, but weight is weight, and best practice in a road car seems to be 3000lbs these days. Love your spirit, making the alfa dance and now using the Mc20 as opposed to doing the easy route of the porche thing, nothing like an italian car at full song.. to me the 4c showed promise, but then lacked the power or great suspesion to really do the job, although it is tremendous fun on track. the Mc 20 seems to take the concept further with a knockout motor and suspesion/steering done by the same guru as the superlative guila. Im pretty sure at some point they will do the lighetr less lux version of this car and it will be a great, the modern out the box 2888/f40 that also looks great and works. Whether this version or a lighter more honed version there still might be lighter and better road cars for track, but maybe not more desirable or more fun than the mc20 and certainly not as good looking.. it will be interesting to see how you evolve your car for track, and a bug Kudos to you for really using ti on track and showing whats possible.
Some more context for any that may be confused since we are speaking about the MC20 as well as the Alfa QV versus different GT3 cars The Alfa QV held an amazing time and record for sedans professionally driven at the ring of 7:32 The new Porsche Panamera was the first sedan to finally beat the Alfa QV's record coming in at 7:29 https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a33585225/2021-porsche-panamera-turbo-s-nurburgring-time/ The GT3 992- Laps the ring in 6:55-6:59- The 992 GT3RS- Laps the ring in 6:43-6:47(original time), some newer tweaked 2RS's are getting in the 6:43 and below times https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a36827456/porsche-911-gt2-rs-smashes-nurburgring-record-with-643-time/ I haven't seen the MC20 times on the ring but from the times its put down on other tracks, is not even close to any GT cars times. Having said all that, obviously cars are not all about lap times at all, there is much more to the experience but if we are going to talk about lap times best to be accurate. If there was a second or two difference between these cars, the usual arguments can be made, different tires, drivers, blah blah zzzzzz . But they are so far apart in times its best to just acknowledge and align with reality. Certainly love my QV, very fun and quick car but I would never thrash it on a track like I used to with my GT car and do not have the expectation that its a track focused designed car, because we all know it isn't. As for the MC20, stunning car and looks to be a special fun package but again, it is not a track focused car like any GT car. It's it own unique experience.
Your reply post is spot on! No matter how great the COG suspension stiffness electronic differential aerodynamics all of that stuff is second to a light weight car with plenty of power, suspension, aero and good brakes. It’s funny you brought up the 4C because I had the most modded fastest one for several years until a car fire from a turbo charger that disintegrated killed it. I then bought a Giulia QV because I wanted to try something different and I wanted more HP to stave off the dive bomber stupid drivers that would pass me on the long straightaways and then be slow throughout all the turns. I did some light mods to the 3,800 lbs Giulia and it was really fast but I was still chasing my highly modded 2,500 lbs 4C lap times. Only when I made a Giulia a custom one off widebody was it faster. The bottle neck was the tires I had like 600 HP great suspension great brakes put the tires were super skinny at 245/285 The most I could fit on there without body modification was 255/305 but that wasn’t enough. My custom widebody now wears 305/325 tires and literally can keep up with GT3RS, GT3, 911 Turbo, GT4 etc. With equal drivers and tires sure the GT3RS can beat my sedan but really not by much. We have a real deal driver at ORP who drives a GT3RS Who I have tracked with and can attest to his prowess. The fastest he said he has gone is 1:47s in his GT3RS. For a short while he owned a GT2RS that was only maybe 1 second faster but he didn’t think it was worth all the extra consumables expense due to design and weight. So he went back to the GT3RS. The fastest I have gone in my Alfa sedan is 1:50.2 on 100 harness street tires. And that was last year I’ve dialed in things a bit and with cup to comparable tires I’m pretty sure I can do 1:48s. So there you go lighter is fastest. But remember 911 his head 50 years of refinement. I’m still not through with my Giulia. Also the RS cars I’m talking about are pretty much stock with some camber adjustments and maybe wider tires or slicks. But my Giulia I consider only moderately modded because it’s stock engine ECU tune, exhaust and intakes only for extra power. I made about 600 HP at the crank and only run pump gas. Only other mods are KW coil overs, Girodisc brakes, camber, and of course my wide body that allows wider tires and I also added some internal hidden arrowdynamics that have given me great down force without having to put some big gaudly wing on it. After all this is my daily driver family sedan LOL or at least that’s what I call it in the drivers meetings And to further prove your point about adding lightness I stumbled across putting my wider Giulia wheels/tires on my Alfa Stelvio QV and they fit they’re about 2 inches shorter but it’s equal at 325 wide square tire set up on it so it doesn’t mess with the all wheel drive other than gearing the car lower And I took it to the race track car was extremely fast but we’re out the OEM brake pads in three laps LOL! But amazingly after I did some camber the car was insane fast almost as fast as a Giulia Widebody even though it weighs 500 pounds more! That all wheel drive would just make it scream out of corners! So I did a few more super light mods on it and built up the engine with the same ECU tune and exhaust and intake to get the 600 hp. And now I have an SUV that blows up most all two door sports cars. I called out the Italian soccer mom SUV at the driver meetings. And I’m not even exaggerating. That SUV on that same Qlipse Racetrack (formerly SCR Spokane County Raceway) also does 1:29s !!! I actually have the or among the fastest production car laptimes at that track: MC20: 1:29.0 Alfa Guilia QV widebody 1:29.1 Alfa Stelvio QV 1:29.7 of course the MC 20 will be much faster once I learn how to drive it that was my first time with it at the track and only my 10th lap when I went that speed. Also the track has been closed for two years so I need to warm up for it again. Also OEM alignment is only -1 camber front and rear. Also OEM tires are 300 hardness. This week we’re putting an alignment on it shooting for -3 front -2 rear and once my OEM tires were out I already have some nice Toyo 100 hardest tires that are 10 mm wider at 255/315 vs OEM 245/305. I believe with those small mods I’ll be doing 1:26s which is close to formula Atlantic cars! So a 3,750 lbs supercar with a great long travel suspension , low low COG and stiff tub can overcome its weightness to certain extend. But actually my fastest car plan is a 2005 lotus Elise I picked up that was a cup racecar its life with the stock 190 HP motor. I took it to Qlispe (SCR) and did a 1:34.5 not bad! Of course it is a 1,750 lbs car! My plans are to put a Honda K 24 motor in it with a supercharger get 375 hp on pump gas beef up the suspension and brakes and have my fastest but cheapest car. Also it will be my least expensive to run for consumables! My biggest education was last year when I took my widebody to ORP Oregon Raceway Park for a big HOD event with six GT3RS cars five of which were in advanced group and of course there was a GT3s and 911 turbos in there too. Anyway I had brand-new 100 hardness tires and I was fastest but everyone was coming at me every session and I wore out those tires in one day. 5 sessions and my brand new tires were gone! Probably about half of my front brake pads too! I’m sure a few of those RS drivers did close to that consumables damage too! Out of the five drivers at least three of them were really good. Not the 1:47 laptime best of best drivers but they were doing solid 1:51s lap after lap. I was doing 1:50s Expensive? YES but worth it! ABSOLUTELY it was one of those epic days. Here is a few photos of my cars. FYI I am a PCA instructor and I have many friends with P cars. Also the PCA tracking events among the few events I’m going to take my MC20 to because I trust how they run the events so well. Also so I really planned on getting a GT4RS but Porsche purposely detuned it so it would be slower than the 911s. But of course they had to. Stelvio at SCR: Alfa Romeo Stelvio QV 1:29.7 fastest lap SCR Spokane County Raceway Giulia at Qlispe: Alfa Romeo Giulia QV widebody 1:29.1 fastest lap @Qlispe’ Raceway Lotus Elise 1:34 laptimes at SCR Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I agree with a lot of what you say. I will just add the current Porsche cars would not be as fast as they are if it wasn’t for Alfa coming back! They owe us! The German Sports car conglomerate both trash talks Alfa so they maintain their stranglehold on the sportscar market but they also fear and respect Alfa because they are better and faster in some ways and of course don’t even get me started on the looks or the price difference. And Alfa has done this with the new Giorgio platform that is brand-new and designed in only four years. Also please understand because the Porsche 911 is been around for 50 years that they’ve had plenty of time to do all the mods necessary and they brand them as RS cars. And Since Alfa is so new it’s only natural that people like me have to mod them themselves to bring them up to RS level. The Quadrifoglio models are bad ass and have all the potential to keep up with your RS cars but they certainly don’t come like that from the factory in fact the stock brake pads are gone in one day as they are so soft! And the MC20 is brand new too. Don’t expect them to come out with a standard model and a track model at the same time. Again it’s up to people like me to do some very minor mods to bring them up to fastest at the track level. And all I’m going do for my MC20 is slightly wider tires, more camber, lightweight lithium battery, upgrade the brake pads and later on put a valved exhaust on. Also I’m going to figure out a harness system. That’s a tiny amount of modding. Not fair to compare the experience of Porsche 911 models that have been around forever with Alfa or Maserati on these new models. And I’ve never seen a Cayenne SUV in any dress that can come even CLOSE to my only lightly modded Alfa Stelvio QV SUV. Can’t touch this! Alfa Romeo Stelvio QV @AREA 27 2:20 fast lap with racecars
I have a Gulia and stelvio too. Just the 4cyl cars, more than plenty for the road. Alfas best 4door cars you can get imo. Im a big elsie fan, have one of those and a v6 exige cup. Not sure you need to go the honda K24 route. There are some excellent aftermarket intercooled supercharger systems for the 4cyl cars, roughly 300hp is all you need. You can also go close ratio box, the cars ive ties with that are quicker but its a lot more shifting taking away from time. There are also lots of great bits to loose even more weight. On my 195 hp elise it used to have ohlins springs and run slicks at the track. Since then it became more of a road car again, so I went back to the stock blistein track pack shocks which gives a great balance and ride height. Front camber is -1.7 which is a little aggressive for a road car but works on track. the elsie is so sweet I still track it at short tracks like LRP, have a set of r888Rs which i throw on and rive to the track, easy peasy. These days my laptimes at LRP are the same or better on the 888Rs and bilsteins as when I was running ohlins yoko slicks etc. For pads I used to use pagid Rs14 blacks, now ferodo 2500 which are great street and track. Thge laptime thing, Im just a better driver 10 years later even if the car is notionaly slower. I dont even de activatre the traction stability system as I used to. My theory is if its activating Im overdriveing somewhere. Part of that speed in the else is that the exige v6 is so much faster harder quicker etc that my brain is much better calibrated, so when i drive the elise, its all happening at a pace my brain has comfortable time to think through. On the exige each corner arrives 20 mph fatser and you brake later and harder. The elise is the ultiamte metronome car, like a miata if you can be quick in a stock elise you can be quick in anything. I find in the exige its easy to get lazy, use the power to add speed back, overbrake etc, the elise forces me to get it right and then go to the exige. GT4 Rs seems liek a really great car. The paper power difference to the Gt3 seems notional and is probably tolerable with a non euro exhaust, more than anything its probably just a very different drive to Gt3. Once again though iyts tryign to find a blance between track and street. My impression is it probably not great on street, and yet still not really a pure track car. So maybe its one of the ultimate drive to the track cars, ie you dont need a truck, but then its compromised everywhere else. Thats the holy grail, a car stiff hard and sharp enough for the track, yest still has fluidity and enough compliance to be fun on road. the best of the modernish road cars i have driven is a 997.2 Gt3, it seemed to have it all, great shifting, intuitive steering and power delivery. But i never tried it on track and now they're "collecatbles". the most modern track car I drove was the maclaren 570 Gt4. It was a devastating tool, but kinda meh cause it was mostly the car, frankly on that day at lrp the elise was simply orders of magnitude more fun. The exige will slowly roll in a well driven Gt3 because its significantly quicker though the bends and not much slower down the straights. To me the Gt3 is still the benchmark for fast street cars on track, not least because it can sustain pace all day(for a price) and its honed. Yes a ferrari F8 would be quicker still for afew laps, but it would also fade and the running cost would be ruinous, so the Gt3 seems to hit an upper end sweespot. If the Mc20 can run hard all day with similar times and consumables to a Gt3 then were talking. I just dont think the car has had that level of development yet and its potential is on paper still, plus its heavy. its interesting how ones views evolve with time place and use. I have a z06 on order. 3 months ago I would have assured you that it would be a coupe. Now living most of the year in Florida, Ill say it will be a convertible cause the vette looks better with the top down and its a good climate for top down. But the real point is I know that its car I might track once maybe 1-2x per year just for fun and its pretty clear that the z06 cool as it is is simple going to be too heavy and too big for regular hard track use. however for the road esp in Fl, its going to be big enough to deal with highway and trucks, and probably comfortable enough for driving about, whereas i think a GT4Rs would just be a compromise too far in that environment. An elise in Florida would be pointless. There are more elevation changes and curves in my driveway in Ct than 100 miles of Florida. Horses for courses. The car we really wants is a 4c tub, with sorted wishbone suspension(not struts) and a 400-500 hp Na version of the alfa V6. But thats not gonna happen. i guess the Mc20 is as close as we'll get. Inetresting to see how much weigth that car an loose with time, case the basics of the rest are all there, i trust its durable and reliable as the alfas are.
