Cold idle poor | FerrariChat

Cold idle poor

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by bpcurtis, Sep 16, 2022.

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  1. bpcurtis

    bpcurtis Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    79
    Dickinson, TX
    Full Name:
    Burnell P Curtis
    My 87 testarossa (F113A040 00586) will not idle cold and has not for years. When it warms up enough to move the temperature gauge, it seems fine to me. I have read everything that I can find and have done the following; A - balanced the vacuum at 15 inches of water with engine hot. B - Replaced the protection relay found under the right rear fender (it was burned). C - Measured the voltage at the temperature sensor(red wire) and it was +12v. D - checked the resistance of the TRC sender at the ECUs (pin 21 and 2) and it was correct for the cold engine (2k ohms if I remember correctly). E - Read all of the lit I could find on KE injection and found nothing that tells me how to trouble shoot this problem.
    Finally, I said more that a few bad words.
    Can someone out there give me guidance on what else i might check?
    Thanks in advance.
    Burnell Curtis
     
  2. TJsBeer

    TJsBeer Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 10, 2016
    405
    Valley Forge, PA
    Full Name:
    Jeff Miller
    I had a similar problem on my 86.
    It turned out to be the air sliders.
    Not sure if your 87 has the same set up as mine is mechanical fuel injection.
     
  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,151
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #3 Steve Magnusson, Sep 16, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2022
    When you say:

    Does that also mean that you:

    1. Adjusted the mixture screws at warm idle with the O2 sensors unplugged (with the new working Protection Relay in place) to values of about 0.6~0.7 VDC (slightly rich) relative to ground? You should also be able to manually "swing" the unplugged O2 sensor outputs from lean (0.1~0.2VDC) to rich (0.8~0.9VDC) by turning the mixture screws. Not being able to do this is a clear sign of a serious problem somewhere.

    and

    2. Confirmed that the O2 sensor output voltages (after the step 1 adjustment), when plugged in at warm idle, both do "drunkenly wander" every second or two from/between the lean boundary (0.1~0.2 VDC) to the rich boundary (0.8~0.9 VDC) relative to ground? This is an important check that the EHAs are working, as the EHAs are what are used to add enrichment for cold-running.

    PS That better be inches of Hg (Mercury) vacuum ;)
     
  4. bpcurtis

    bpcurtis Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    79
    Dickinson, TX
    Full Name:
    Burnell P Curtis
    Steve,
    1. The new protection relay was in but O2 sensors were plugged in also. Is 0.6etc the values of the O2 sensors hot?
    2. I will confirm the O2 sensor output voltages and watch them during hot idle. (Idle is steady at 900 rpm to 1000 when hot.)
    Sorry, inches of Hg. (Bad that an old chemical engineer would make that mistake)
    Thanks,
    Burnell
     
  5. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,151
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Yes, at warm idle with the O2 sensor single output wire unplugged but connected to your DC voltmeter. Leave the molded 2-pin connectors for the O2 sensor heaters plugged in. The single wire from each O2 sensor is the output wire (label everything carefully -- do not get things swapped).
     
  6. bpcurtis

    bpcurtis Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    79
    Dickinson, TX
    Full Name:
    Burnell P Curtis
    TJsBeer,
    What are the air sliders?
    Got to go, will work on this maybe tomorrow.
    Thanks everyone for tips and stuff to check.
    Burnell
     
  7. bpcurtis

    bpcurtis Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    79
    Dickinson, TX
    Full Name:
    Burnell P Curtis
    My AAVs appear to be in the correct position as to the opening. I have not checked them through a temperature cycle but will do that later.
    Thanks,
    Burnell
     
  8. bpcurtis

    bpcurtis Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    79
    Dickinson, TX
    Full Name:
    Burnell P Curtis
    Steve;, I got the engine hot, unplugged the single wire to each O2 sensor (marked them), connected up voltmeters to the wire going to the O2 sensors, connected up a vacuum gauge and got the following results. Idle 800 to 1000, vacuum steady but when adjusting mixture screws it varied from 12 to 15 inches of Hg. One O2 sensor measured 0.035 all the time, the other varied from 0.60 to 0.64. I did not vary the mixture screw more than 1/2 to 1 turn. If test conducted correctly, I conclude: One O2 sensor is bad (0.035) and the other bank is running very rich. I also conclude that the ECUs did nothing.
    Your conclusion and suggestions for further work.
    Thanks,
    Burnell
     
  9. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
    25,151
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    1/2 to 1 turn is a huge adjustment of the mixture screws -- something like +/- 1/8 turn (or even less) should go from full lean to full rich. If those O2 sensors are working, the 0.035V is very lean, but the 0.60-0.64V value isn't bad. However, even if the injection ECUs are dead, turning the mixture screws should swing the output voltages of the unplugged O2 sensors. Also, when the O2 sensors are unplugged at warm idle, the injection ECUs will do nothing -- they will just set their EHA current to a constant 10mA (at/near sea level) regardless of where the mixture screw is set.

    Are you able to turn the mixture screw of a bank CCW (lean) until that bank obviously stops running, or runs super badly, then turn the mixture screw back CW until it starts to run well? And the air hole to the mixture screw always needs to be plugged, like with a finger tip, when making an O2 sensor voltage measurement or judging the engine's operation.
     
  10. bpcurtis

    bpcurtis Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    79
    Dickinson, TX
    Full Name:
    Burnell P Curtis
    Steve, I drove the car and got it hot. I unplugged both of the single wires (and marked them) from the O2 sensors and connected voltmeters to the single wires going to the O2 sensors. I also connected a vacuum gauge. With the engine running, I adjusted both of the mixture screws maybe a full turn in and out. The results were: The engine idles between 800 and 1000rpm. The vacuum varied between 13 and 15 Inches of Hg. The voltage reading were 0.035 on one side and did not change. It was 0.60 to 0.64 on the other side and did not seem to change with the mixture screws. My conclusions: One O2 sensor is bad and the ECUs do not appear to be working.
    Your thoughts?
    Thanks,
    Burnell
     
  11. bpcurtis

    bpcurtis Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    79
    Dickinson, TX
    Full Name:
    Burnell P Curtis
    Oops, what air hole? Back to the car to look for them.
     
  12. bpcurtis

    bpcurtis Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    79
    Dickinson, TX
    Full Name:
    Burnell P Curtis
    Steve, I am adjusting the wrong screw. I thought the mixture screw was the large brass screw that is spring loaded. There is no hole in them. What screw are you referring to?

    Burnell
     
  13. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
    25,151
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    #14 Steve Magnusson, Sep 17, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2022
    That large, male hex screw is the air bypass screw. The mixture screw (a 3mm female hex) is inside the airflow metering device and has a threaded screw cover that must be removed to access it, and the threaded screw cover has a security (anti-tamper) cap that isn't easy to remove (typically need to drill a short, blind hole into it, drive a sheet metal screw into the blind hole and then pull on the added sheet metal screw to remove the security cover -- maybe you will be lucky and the security caps will have already been removed).

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    A cross-section (of a K-Jet, but KE-Jet is the same for the mixture screw -- the note in the figure is from another thread where the OP was missing the threaded cover screw) showing how the mixture screw is down inside the airflow metering device:

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    When you remove the threaded cover screw to get access to the mixture screw, that is the "access hole" that needs to be plugged to get a meaningful measurement from the O2 sensor.

    Have you read (and looked at the figures) in Chapter D of the TR WSM? Especially pages D61-D016 that cover the US "with Lambda" system.
     
  14. bpcurtis

    bpcurtis Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    79
    Dickinson, TX
    Full Name:
    Burnell P Curtis
    Steve, The WSM that I have shows a WUR in the pictures of the engine (D3, figure 2) so since I started on this quest I have not trusted the procedures in the WSM. So, do you know where I can get a copy of a WSM that shows a KE system without the WUR? I have experience with K with a WUR (Porsche 911) but none with KE jet. Does it make a difference and should I plow ahead and adjust the mixture. BTW, my anti-tamper plugs are gone so someone before me tinkered with it.
    Thanks,
    Burnell
     
  15. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
    25,151
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    Steve Magnusson
    That make things easier. Probably aren't many TR out there now with the anti-tamper plugs still in place.

    This link:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/18bidr3sgbofytb/Workshop Manual Testarossa Supplement Catalytic Converter D61-D106.pdf?dl=0

    will get you a copy of TR WSM pages D61-D106 covering the TR KE-Jet with Lambda system.

    As far a physically making the mixture adjustment, K-Jet and KE-Jet are about the same -- just, on K-Jet, you need to make sure the WUR is working correctly before doing the mixture adjustment; whereas, on KE-Jet, you need to make sure the Protection Relay is working correctly before doing the mixture adjustment.
     
  16. bpcurtis

    bpcurtis Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    79
    Dickinson, TX
    Full Name:
    Burnell P Curtis
    Steve, How do I make sure the protection relay is working correctly before I adjust the mixture idle screw? All I did was replace it when I found it was burned. The rest of the circuit, I do not know.
    Burnell
     
  17. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
    25,151
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    +12V being present on the red wire at the Y-pipe water thermoswitch during starter motor cranking and engine running (you initially wrote that you had already confirmed this is OK).

    It's just the preliminary check before attempting mixture adjustments -- i.e., if no +12V there, you've got to fix that first. If there is +12V there, that doesn't confirm that everything is working. The final check is to measure the O2 sensor voltages when plugged in at warm idle (after you get all done with the mixture adjustments with the O2 sensors unplugged):

    If the O2 sensor voltages are properly wandering drunkenly between the lean and rich limits = that confirms the Protection Relay, the injection ECUs, and the EHAs are working.

    If the O2 sensor voltages just stay quasi-constant like when unplugged = some problem elsewhere.
     
  18. bpcurtis

    bpcurtis Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    79
    Dickinson, TX
    Full Name:
    Burnell P Curtis
    I am not able to remove the plug. It is 6mm hex and will not come out. As it is aluminum it is soft and when I turn the hex key and can tell that it is stripping the head. I have applied penetration oil but does not help. Normal ways to remove a hex like this is to heat it (not in this case), apply a chisel to the side (can not get to it), or drill it out (no, would drop cuttings into the distributor). Any ideas anyone? I could wait until the next engine out (just done) but that is not going to happen in my lifetime.
    Any ideas welcomed.
    Burnell
     
  19. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
    25,151
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    #20 Steve Magnusson, Sep 27, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2022
    Never heard of that. AFAIK, the stock screw plug is a slotted-head, steel screw:

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    I'd add that any fastener with a 6mm female hex drive is going to have a much larger thread size than the stock screw plug (so seems like someone's done some serious changes). The good news is that, worst case, you could use a simple rubber plug to close the hole if things go really bad getting the existing plug out. Can you post a photo of it similar to the one in post #14?
     
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  20. bpcurtis

    bpcurtis Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    79
    Dickinson, TX
    Full Name:
    Burnell P Curtis
    The screw that covers the hole is exactly as you described. Dirt and whatever made it difficult to see. Now, onward. I removed the screw and put a 3mm hex down it and adjusted the screw about 1/16 of a turn cw. The O2 voltage stayed at 0.03. I then turned it another 1/16 to maybe 1/8 cw. The voltage stayed at 0.03 and maybe dropped to 0.02. All of these measurements were made with the cover screw back in place so there was no air leakage. I did not touch the right bank screw as its voltage was constant at 0.65. My thoughts are to replace the O2 sensor that is reading 0.03 and start over. The sensor is only $45.
    Any thoughts?
    Thanks,
    Burnell
     
  21. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,151
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    As you indicated, a new O2 sensor isn't expensive to try, but you should be able (with the O2 sensor unplugged) to go CCW (too lean) to obvious bad idle running and then CW (too rich) to obvious bad running -- if you can't do that = I'd think that that bank isn't even running at all at idle. (Do keep track of amount of turns so you can know where you were and where you've been.)
     
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  22. Veedub00

    Veedub00 F1 Rookie
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    Jun 30, 2006
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    i'd swap o2 sensors and see if the sensor gets a reading on the bank.
     
  23. Jay535

    Jay535 Karting

    Mar 10, 2011
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    Toronto Area, Canada
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    Jay Lebo
  24. bpcurtis

    bpcurtis Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    79
    Dickinson, TX
    Full Name:
    Burnell P Curtis
    I now have more data and it is not encouraging. My drivers side is running 0.744 on the O2 sensor with the engine hot and with 15 inches Hg on both banks. I adjusted the metering screw more that 1/8 turn and there was no effect except the engine idles worse. The passenger side O2 sensor reads 0.001 to 0.004. The metering screw is not available as I can not get it out. The screw slot is messed up and a screwdriver will slip as will a hand impact wrench.
    I now have a new O2 sensor and will put it in the passengers side and see if the readings change.
    Thoughts?
    After this I will think about looking at the air pot but why bother if a fix or new one is not available.
    Burnell
     

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