365 GTC/4 electric window debug

One of my electric windows stopped working suddenly. I swapped the switches, confirming both are good. Fuses look good but hard to see. I lowered the window with mechanical crank and it moved well with no resistance or unevenness of effort.

Not sure if it matters but I was caught in the rain the other day. I rolled up the windows then and everything was fine. 24 hours later on next drive, passenger window wouldn’t go down. Not sure if water could have caused issue.

 

Could be any number of things or combination of many, but likely something electrical i.e. wiring connectors/contacts, especially ground, anywhere in the circuit, motor itself, relays (if it has any), etc…
When was the last time the entire power window circuit and all related components thoroughly serviced ?
Same with all other electrical circuits and wiring, etc ?

 

Switches are weak, motor thermal fuse can go wrong, if the rest is built like the early 365/400 then motors and cables should not be an issue.

There are some windows booster that relieve the load that passes through the switch.

 

Thanks for the comments. I have owned the car for 4 months. 24K miles and windows have been operating perfectly. I am going to check power then fuses. Can't understand how motor or cables are the issue.

 

The thermal fuses are attached to the motor themselves (i.e these are not tge torpedo fuses of the glove-box). When they age they can go bad and suck the voltage away from the motor.

The motor should cope with water, not sure about the fuses.

 

Thank you raemin for the inputs. I'll be working on this later this week.

 

I replaced the cable on the driver's window lift early this year. Got everything back together, tested fine, put the door panel back on and the next day the window was non-op. Removed the door panel and located the main power feed wire, which had fallen off the terminal. Before pulling everything apart, I would remove the door panel and check the wire feed. I know it's coincidental with the rain you experienced, but weirder things have happened.
Remember that to remove the door panel, you must remove the speaker grill and take one of the mounting screws out which is located just above the speaker. Many people forget this screw and break something in an attempt to remove the door panel. You must also be extremely careful removing the speaker grill as it is old, fragile, easy to break and difficult to replace.

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Thanks Zanny1. I'm going to tackle this over the weekend. Starting with power to the switches, then the torpedo fuses and if all fine, I'll check the connections and fuses on the motor in the door. Thanks for the pro-tips on the speaker grill in the door.

 

Your car is a predecessor of the early 365/400, the interior does actually share many parts with the 365, so you could just replicate some of the fixes made on these cars.

Issues with the switches :
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/windows-switches.639526/#post-147837017

More comprehensive overhaul :
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/365gt4-2-2-window-motor-refresh.551863/#post-145368615

I strongly advise you to read the whole post , but here is a small abstract:

 

Window is fixed. No power to switch. Checked fuses, one 15A was blown. Surprisingly for this Italian delivered car, fuse lid was labeled in English. Torpedo fuses bought at Autozone.

Thanks for taking time to help me.

 

Good day Greg,

I would question why the fuse expired? Fuses do not necessarily degrade and then fail, but expire for a reason. Fuses are like a "Hail Mary" to protect circuitry, etc and so I would recommend you continue your investigation as to the cause. Everything may check out and so chalk up the fuse expiration to be a random event, etc. But it could be that one of the switch contacts became stuck so the motor stalled, current increased , the self resetting thermal fuse did not trigger, and the fuse simply expired. This is what most likely happened on my car, as my one switch showed a lot of heat damage (over time) that finally resulted in a complete failure of the switch. Now, had the issue been more thoroughly investigated the switch could have been spared, etc. Instead the switch was damaged beyond any reasonable repair. Thankfully I was able to find a NOS switch, whereas, these days these items may not be as available.

Having sorted out my window bits, my windows go up and down as fast as any modern car ( a few seconds up and down).

Cheers,

Sam

 

Exactly.
Fuses don't usually blow without a some underlying cause/problem.

 

Wow. A NOS window switch. I couldn't find one 20 years ago when I had 15693. And I believe they are unique to the cars.....unlike the door handles (Fiat/Alfa) and some other wearable items.

 

Good day Mike,

Indeed, I lucked out... actually I got a trifecta...on the switch, but also NOS door lock cylinders with keys... and a NOS side mirror! The lock cylinders and keys were "gold", as someone really knackered my original door locks by trying to modify them to use a Chevy key of all things. All items were also excellently (low) priced (around $50 per item). All I had to do was prove I owned the car... which I suspect was a way for the shop to ensure the parts are going to a car owner and not a flipper who would resell at a substantial margin.

As for the outer door handles...be careful, as what appears to be common is not. The exterior handles are almost the same, but the lock cylinders can be different in diameter and so cannot be used with the handles that are readily available. I discovered this when I bought a set. In my case, I ended up rechroming my originals and milling some surfaces because the chroming shop chromed areas they were not supposed to chrome resulting in things not fitting as they were supposed to.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Thanks for the tip, Sam. I didn't see the difference you mentioned.

 

The 365GTC being a low production, one would expect the parts to be somehow identical during the whole production cycle. Unfortunately Ferrari seem to have used whatever was available in the shelves. On the maintenance side they were also quite "creative" : my father's 365 had been damaged, it came back with 400 parts...

This was described back then as "upgrades", and I can perfectly understand why the dealer would retrofit an early 365 with a sump or the timing bits from a 400. But this makes the hunt for part quite challenging. So before biting the bullet on the outrageously expensive window switch I would check first that the switches are still stock. After all it was easy to retrofit a 400GT wood console together with its easy to source Fiat switches...

As far as the door handle are concerned, the reproductions that are currently sold are just puzzling: they do not fit any of the 365, and do not fit either the early 400. Whether they fit a 400i or 412 remains to be seen. They are probably a good match for an Alfa spider though...

 

Good day Raemin,

Good points.

As for the door handles... for those that are interested I created a thread on my experience along with providing pictures of the differences, etc:

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/be-aware-of-the-new-365gt4-2-2-400-series-door-handles-being-sold.487081/#post-143926307

Cheers,

Sam

 

365 GTC/4 window switches are Mercedes-Benz Part # MA001 821 06 51 Switch, Sun Roof.
I bought two in 2011 for £48.30 each .
Don't know whether they are still available.
Neil.

 

There's a guy in Turkey that has 10 of them available at $95 each. They only have four connectors on the bottom...... I seem to recall the originals having six but will have to check.
I may order 2 just to keep as spares. Thanks for the tip!

 

This Mercedes switch (as sold on eBay) does look like the 400 window switch.

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The 365 switch is slightly longer, and the curvature of the toggle is "smoother". The connectors are also different (bullet connectors on the 400).

This being said that's still a nice cross reference, as even the 400 switch gets hard to find now!

 

Regarding the blown fuse, when I brought my 330 GTC 45 years ago a prior owner had replaced the two 15 amp fuses with 25 amp fuses. I assumed that the window motors had a power surge during startup due to friction in the linkage and guides. The fuses have never blown. The wires and motors have operated without any problems. The switch contacts need periodic maintenance. My switches are from FISPA and are simple to disassemble to polish the contacts.

 

Good day Bill,

I am glad your solution worked out for you, but it is very risky to do what what was done. Motors will draw more current when they first start or if they face resistance do to age (hardened grease, failed/worn bearings, worn brushes, oxidized commutator, etc) or if they become jammed (stall current). Upon starting the current increase can be 2x or more the steady state current. However, regular fuses can be bought with different types of responses... fast blow, slo blow, etc. Slo-blow means just that... in that it takes a lot longer for the fuse to expire when the current exceeds the rated fuse size. Slo-blow fuses are used for motors, etc to accommodate the additional startup currents (which is a brief amount of time) that result.

Now, increasing the fuse size may simply being a bandaid to an underlying problem (motor issues, items I listed do to aging, etc) the result could result in at best melting of the wires... or at worst a fire. Automotive wiring is almost the worst possible wire that one can buy. Most auto wire lacks any formal approvals that are required in many applications. The approvals can and usually dictate the material used in the insulation... this is important, as crap wire typically has crap insulation which can be an accelerant when flame or excessive heat is present. Proper certified wire uses insulation materials that are self extinguishing and/or do not release toxic or acrid gas when heated or burned. In all of the older Ferrari's I have looked at, Ferrari's wiring is so-so at best is almost and at the bare minimum as to what should have been used. Installing larger fuses on already so-so to crap wires is asking for trouble and/or extremely risky.

My advice would be to review and analyze why the fuse is expiring. Perhaps the wiring and/or loads were changed over time and so a higher fuse size was needed? Maybe the motor's thermal fuse has failed and so once the motor reached the end of travel it stalled and the current increased a lot... which would cause a problem if one kept holding the window switch in its position or if the switch failed on. Fuses expire for a reason and to ignore this is not something I would recommend.

Cheers,

Sam