348 - 1990 348TS Engine out - What updates should I consider? | FerrariChat

348 1990 348TS Engine out - What updates should I consider?

Discussion in '348/355' started by cstorry, Jul 20, 2024.

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  1. cstorry

    cstorry Karting
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2005
    87
    Ottawa, Ontario
    Full Name:
    Chuck Storry
    I recently bought a 348 that needed a waterpump. I'm a DIYer so I figured I'd give it a go.

    See my progress on my thread here
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/waterpump-catastrophic-failure-advice-needed.694792/

    The pump had literally self destructed sending plastic and metal parts throughout the cooling system. I believe that I have recovered / flushed all the pieces from the cooling system but it meant a complete teardown of the motor. Everything is cleaned and ready to start re-assembly.

    While I am here what else should I do/check ?

    Car is USA model, door post plate says October 1990 manufacture date.
    Car has
    - motronic 2.7 ecus
    - alloy cam belt covers
    - denso starter
    - nippon denso alternator

    I searched a bit and looked at the DIYs posted but the closest I found was a list of the factory changes in this thread
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/whats-wrong-with-the-89-348s.105953/

    The car had a major in 2017 but only a few miles before the (new) waterpump shed its impeller then sat til now.

    Is there somewhere a list of the things I should check before I put it all back together to make sure I have all the suggested updates for a relatively early 348 motor/gearbox?

    It's got a new
    - hill tensioner bearing set (I don't see a reason to change this but of course a new timing belt will be used)
    - chain tensioner, tensioner plate and chain tensioner pad (still looks good - no wear)
    - will get a new waterpump with metal impeller (though the previous one appears to have shed its lock nut somehow. I don't think the problem was the material used on the impeller. I will need to check the clearances of the new pump impeller and the housing as my housing was damaged).
    - obviously all new gaskets. Not sure about seals, there's time on them but not much mileage but I would like to reset the clock for the next major and don't want to choose a false sense of economy. I saw no leakage from any of them but the car was sitting for a few years.

    I thought I saw somewhere that
    - the drive pulley fence (or is it cam wheel fences) should be tack welded (none of mine are loose yet)
    - some bearing should be changed from roller bearing to ball bearing ?
    - stake some lockrings in the gearbox?

    (@ernie also posted a list of some items in this post - though the description of the things to check is brief and perhaps assumes I know what he is referring to in the first place)
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/considering-a-1990-348-ts.673593/page-2

    Maintenance items
    - how to tell if I need new motor mounts ?(no evidence they were ever replaced but boy new ones are not cheap!)

    OK not part of the motor/gearbox but 25mm spacers on the rear wheels are often suggested along with using updated (exactly what?) suspension settings

    Thanks for any and all suggestions.
     
  2. chas-3

    chas-3 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 28, 2009
    1,279
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Chuck
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  3. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,611
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    Since you have the engine out and on an engine stand, here are the things I did.

    1) I replaced both front and rear bearings for the timing belt drive pulley. Be sure to use the Hill Engineering set Ricambi sells, because there when some questionable bearings being sold in the past. (That is the one chas-3 posted the TSB for)

    2) Drive pulley shaft seal was replaced

    3) Rear main seal was replaced

    4) I replaced the oil sump o-ring with one made of Viton

    5) I would make sure the extra oil drain hole, for the cam seal housing/s, have been drilled at the proper angle. If not Ricambi has the tool you’ll need

    6) The water pump to have is the unit Ferraripilot designed and manufactured. Unfortunately he no longer makes them because there were so many counterfeit unit being sold. But IF you can find one that is the one to have.

    7) I used Hondabond HT on ALL the gaskets (both sides) = I had ZERO leak issues.

    8) I would check the ring nuts on the main and lay shafts of the gear box while it is out. I would make sure they are on tight, properly staked, and that there is zero lateral play in the shafts. (I would also make sure I knew which one of the ring nuts was the reverse threaded one) I would make sure that there are no signs of metal bits in the gearbox.

    9) I would replace the triple seals on the prop-shaft

    10) I would check the dual mass flywheel for any signs of leaks

    11) I change all o-rings to those made from Viton

    12) I would replace my stock injectors for a set of 4 hole injectors. Or at the very least have the stock set tested and cleaned.

    13) I would get my intake runners ported, flow matched. I would also port match the gaskets.

    14) I would get my throttle bodies tapper ported

    15) Would use SFS Performance silicone coolant hose set

    16) If it has not already been done, I would re-pin both T55 Motronic connectors with TIN plated Junior Power Timer pins. I would also clean the male pins on the Motronic ECUs using DeoxIT.

    17) I would make sure that the intake banks are balanced from side to side using a manometer. That the throttles are opening and closing at the same time. Also making sure to set the idle speed to the proper RPMs. Also, that the throttle cable is in good shape and has the proper tension.

    18) I would rebuild the alternator with an upgraded voltage regulator and rectifier. Also checking the condition of the brushes and replacing if needed.

    19) If the still has the factory bullet connectors for the battery/starter I would replace them for solid battery cables. I would also install a quick disconnect on the negative battery terminal.
     
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  4. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    Dec 22, 2011
    3,165
    Malaysia - KL
    Full Name:
    Miroljub Stojanovic
    It is the drive pulley outer fence but DO NOT WELD IT. Measure the fence thickness and, if it is 0.8 mm, get the new improved pulley which has fences 1.5 mm thick. The improved pulley replaces "bolt-on" only the later style of the original pulley. If you have the early style pulley, you will need a 3 mm thick spacer to go behind the improved pulley (there are very good write-ups on this on the forum, see at 348 - Engine repair thread | FerrariChat).

    The picture below shows the later style original pulley (ignore the feeler gauge measurement, it shows what I had on my loose fence). Note by how much the rear snout of the pulley sticks out. The snout of the early pulley sticks out by 3 mm more than what the picture shows (you can scale the rear snout protrusion from the picture and compare it with what you have on your pulley).

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    New improved pulley:

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  5. cstorry

    cstorry Karting
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2005
    87
    Ottawa, Ontario
    Full Name:
    Chuck Storry
    Thanks @chas-3 - my motor is in the target range (24403 < 24720) so I need to be sure I have the new bearing.

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    @m.stojanovic I measure my fence thickness at about .7mm so I guess I need the new pulley.
    I haven't made it all the way through the thread you linked but is there a place to get the 3mm spacer (or a kit of spacer + pulley)?

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    @ernie - I am making my way through your list. I see a few uprated seals and o-rings from Hill Engineering but not a lot of the parts suppliers list the material (viton). Can I just go to a seal/o-ring jobber with the specs or do our regular suppliers have viton seals and o-rings as an option ?

    How do I check for the cam seal drain hole ? I'm going to have to try some searches to know what to look for to see it it has been done on my car.

    Thanks for the tips and suggestions so far.
     
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  6. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Nov 19, 2001
    22,611
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    The Bad Guy
    #6 ernie, Jul 21, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2024
    The o-rings,
    I took the old o-rings with me to a hydraulic line supplier, and had them matched for diameter and thickness, then bought what I needed in Viton.
     
  7. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Nov 19, 2001
    22,611
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    The Bad Guy
    As for the drain back hole, this post by @steved033 348 cam housing leak and orings shows where the drian holes should be. Basically you want them in the lower part of the “cup” so that the oil doesn’t pool up. There is also a notch in the cam seal hosing that should be positioned at the bottom when installed.
     
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  8. Ferrarium

    Ferrarium F1 Veteran
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    Jul 28, 2018
    5,728
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Eric
    There is a TSB for the chain tensioners using 360 parts. Ricambi has the parts.
     
  9. want2BSchumi

    want2BSchumi Karting

    May 22, 2008
    85
    Los Angeles, CA
    Full Name:
    Russell
    A couple more thoughts based on experience:

    1) Make sure to check both the timing chain pad in the TSB above AND the oil pump tensioner (see pic of mine below with less than 30k on the clock)
    2) Might also want to check your fuel pump gaskets to make sure they're not crumbling into tiny bits that will clog your filters and/or injectors. Can be done anytime, but might as well while everything is disconnected and you're about to install some fresh fuel filters. I opted for the redesigned Scuderia Rampante pump gasket replacement when I did mine 5 years ago, but will let the group chime in if any different solutions are available now

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  10. fdekeu

    fdekeu Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 19, 2008
    629
    Belzium
    Full Name:
    Frank
    Fiammenghi in Italy makes a nice product to replace the pump gasket
    Only 550 & 355 but works for 348 too if modified
    I am going to order it for 550 first
     
  11. cstorry

    cstorry Karting
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2005
    87
    Ottawa, Ontario
    Full Name:
    Chuck Storry
    Big update:

    Thanks to @jqpd99 I have the ringnut tool to remove the cam drive sprocket and now have the front cover off.. Nice to have other 348 owners in town!

    It looks like TSB10-34 was done to my car.

    Inner drive pulley is ball bearing (SKF 6202-Z/C3)
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    The outer bearing is marked NTN Japan 6304LUA1 (not sure if this is the Hill Eng one or not so I will put the Hill one in just to be safe).

    The front cover parts (oil pump chain tensioner, pin, washer, snap ring and 355 tensioner plate) are installed and appear in good condition so will leave them.
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    After the cam drive pulley discussion I will need to have a new cam drive pulley. Does my motor need the pulley shim that @Ferrarium created ?
    My current cam drive pulley has a snout about 21mm long from the back of the pulley to the end of the flange (is this the short or long one?)
    I assume I need to order the new one #144488
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    Now for the NOT oil pump chain tensioner I have a problem. I guess all the black stuff on the oil pickup was not RTV but material from the tensioner pad.
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    Here's the problem. The pad is deeply grooved (in fact so deeply grooved that the chain is almost completely inside the pad) and looks like the pad material has been melted off.
    I'm watching another thread in the 348 forum that is discussing holes in the pad (or lack thereof etc) and oil feed to the chain.
    My pad is so melted I can't tell if it had a hole in it (but the tensioner/spring part does have the plastic pin/button inside).

    Here's what the pad looks like
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    Here's the pieces as they came out
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    ... and here is a closeup of the pad itself

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    So I need a new pad for sure but maybe there is something wrong with my bracket assembly (or the oil feed or the way it was put together)?
    I need to make sure this doesn't happen again.
    I did not notice any rubber/plastic parts in the oil when I drained it nor in the filter but I did not cut the filter open.
    I hope that cleaning the screen on the pickup is enough and that the filter caught any bits that made it past the pickup.

    Other stuff
    My 1-4 head exhaust cam seems to have the drain hole in the wrong place. How serious is this? I don't imagine there are any drilling jigs here in Canada.
    I didn't contact Ricambi to see about getting theirs sent up here but I could.

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    My cam oil seal housings seem to have the indented drain relief (now I just have to align them properly when re-installing them).
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    My fuel pumps have good rubber (I already had them out to drain the fuel that sat for 5 years)

    My coolant hoses are already silicone

    My gearbox TOB flange and bearing are already fitted with the Hill Eng parts but I still need to check the other gearbox items mentioned.

    Lots of cleaning done - feels like progress ...

    Thanks for reading!
     
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  12. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Nov 19, 2001
    22,611
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    The Bad Guy
    Very nice progress and thanks for the update.
     
  13. Finpat

    Finpat Karting

    Sep 17, 2021
    235
    Finland
    Full Name:
    Kari Lehtinen
    May I enquire from where you got the silicon hose set for F119? That is something I also should be doing during next off-season.
     
  14. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,611
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    SFS Performance makes them. Ricambi should have the hose set for sale, as AW Italian should also.
     
  15. cstorry

    cstorry Karting
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2005
    87
    Ottawa, Ontario
    Full Name:
    Chuck Storry
    Indeed - the hoses were on the car when I got it so I don't know where they came from but you can use your favorite search engine and type

    ferrari 348 silicone hose set

    and you will get a number of options.


    Mine are black and marked with a K and a number and appear to be a kit with the following markings:
    - 4x 175.1 (90 degree elbows for rads)
    - 175.2 and 175.3 water pump in & out
    - 175.4 & 175.5 heater in & out
    The kit does not seem to include the pipe from the water pump to the hear water manifolds nor the other small bore pipes from the coolant tank, etc

    My car has only gone 500 miles since they were put on so I can't say anything about their longevity ...
     
  16. cstorry

    cstorry Karting
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2005
    87
    Ottawa, Ontario
    Full Name:
    Chuck Storry
    ... actually my silicone hoses may have come from superformance as I can see some of the other parts that were changed came from them (and they do list an "uprated silicone hose set" for the 348)
     

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