GOOD or BAD NEWS!

1989 ? My 93 512TR has no power steering

 

It has nothing to do with racism, The Enzo looks like something out of a Japanese sci fi cartoon, it looks like its about to transform into a robot. WTF is up with that.

The 612 is BORING

I met Okuyama & he said that he half azzed the Rossa concept car bcus it wouldnt bring $ in for Pininfarina. I didnt really care for that & the Rossa's but looks like a Miatas but not like the 57 TRs very stylish but

The Italians are simply the best designers in the world when it comes to automobiles, classical architecture,clothing, & more

The Japanese are good at design also but definately not good at Auto design

I dont see what racism has to do with that. I admire the Japanese for their culture & their discipline & history but not for their auto designs

 

I think people on both sides are taking overly strong stances.

First, I agree with your latter statement, Richard... those are NOT retro cars. However, I don't agree that they do "not share styling in any way". The 360 is a blend of lines from the F50, the 246, and a few others... but not in a retro way... rather, it just incorporates traditional Ferrari lines into a very new design. The 575 similarly has lines from the 250GT variants; as does the Daytona, so there is commonality there. The 456 is more a Daytona derivation than the 550 was, but again both are just borrowing traditional lines to form new designs. Not retro designs.

Second, I understand that some people prefer the "exotic" angular lines that dominated the Ferrari designs from the early 70's to the early 90's. And to look forward to their return is a fine position to take. However, to take that to the statement "Ferrari needs to get back to its roots" is actually sort of lame... Ferrari's curvy 90's designs is getting back to its roots... its designs from the 50's and 60's! The 360 is a modern-day 246; the 550 a modern-day 250. It is the angular designs of the 70's and 80's that many of you love that were "getting away from its roots".

Third, aerodynamic-driven designs is not new, and not necessarily bad. The beauty of an automotive design is, in part, based on its functionality... a sleek design that looks like it would slip through the air is more beautiful for exactly that reason. I just watched a video detailing all the 250 models. They noted that it is very interesting that the modified lines of the 250GTO, unlike most of the other 250 GT models, was not driven by an artistic designer. Rather, the 250 GTO's lines were driven by aerodynamics. It is interesting, then, that the aerodynamic-driven design is the one that is most widely regarded as the most beautiful of the 250's, if not of all Ferraris. And then there is the P3 and P4... gorgeous designs that were heavily influenced by aerodynamics. So, to complain about the modern designs for being aerodynamics driven is probably short-sighted.

Finally, it is interesting to hear the varying opinions... the 360 is okay, but the rest suck; the 456 was good, but the 360 is horrible; the modern designs aren't exotic, but the Enzo is way too exotic... won't stand the test of time. To me, that is what makes the Ferrari line-up special. They have 4 very different designs, each designed for a very different sense of style:

Enzo - as exotic as any car on the planet; and a clear tribute to F1 racing

360 - very curvy, muscular, and fast-looking; semi-exotic looks

550 - sleek, classy, but still sporty GT look

612/456 - more subdued and understated look for a classy 2+2


In contrast, the Gallardo and Murci-lardo appeal to exactly the same people; the Boxster and 911 are almost identical stylistically; the BMW sedans are 3 sizes of the same thing and the roadsters are only slightly different; the Audi's all have the same look (and the Gallardo has a bit of that family resemblance); and so on. Ferrari's family resemblance is to the cars of the 60's, not to each other.

I love the huge variety of Ferraris that you see at events... and given the angular designs ran for 20 years, there's plenty of them at events! But I'm sure sometime in the next decade, some of those "Classic Ferrari" lines will see there way into new designs... not retro designs, but just borrowed to form wholly new designs. I look forward to it.

 

bcmarly shut up

everyone yes your right i guess i went a bit too far i guess i wan't looking at the logic but i still don't agree with your views

by the way when i saw the enzo for the first time i never knew it was designed by a japaneese guy and it didn't look japaneese to me i guess its all about your own tastes

 

Every body please disregard my very strong post I was trying to put it in the way that Brian has sopken out and went over board i appolagise.

Well done Brian you basicly said what i wanted to say in the way i shld have said it you are a true entusiast (sorry i haven't got great spelling, english is not my first language)

Again great post Brian you hit the nail on the head, by the way congtates on finally getting your 360 cs!!

 

It looks like an F1 car... and that's what they were going for... as a tribute to Enzo... seems appropriate to me... and pretty well-executed. But I still think both the F50 and the F40 were far more beautiful.

Well, first, the Japanese have proven to be brilliant auto designers, referring to the whole automobile. The Toyota design capability is the envy of the entire globe. But of course, you are referring exclusively to the artistic design of the body...

I will agree that those aren't racist statements. But to go one step further and say that no Japanese person can pen as good a body design as an Italian would be racist... just like saying no white guy can rap and no black guy can play golf (prior to contrary examples appearing).

The artistic heritage in Italy is staggering... the Italians grow up seeing more art every month than most Americans see in their lifetimes. And I agree that Italians have designed the majority of the most beautiful cars... but that does not mean the next most beautiful design won't come from a German, an American, or an Asian. (It may affect the odds you'll get from a bookee though!)

 

The Lexus & Acura brands are 2 Asian brands that have challenged the world from a perspective of quality of workmanship, excellent ergonomics, & excellent reliability. All the exotics had to catch up after the NSX came out

Even MB had to improve its quality after the Lexus cars came out.

Too bad their looks were very much copies of German or Italian designs.

Now the Toyota Volta which is their new hybrid 400hp sportscar prototype is a great looking car & original

 

Oddly, though... now MB is below average in reliability... not even in the same class as Lexus.

Yes, but that's understandable... play to your strength... establish yourself... only then do you try to chart your own path.

Well, I'll take any of the Ferrari designs over that... but that's just me.

 

With all due to respect to Okuyama, he is more the pen in the hand of Ferrari and Pininfarina than anything else, as I'm certain every designer was before him for these two firms. I'm certain the many Italian eyes at both Ferrari and Pininfarina make the final decisions and guide the design process from the perspectives of performance, beauty, and tradition.

I recall a clip from the unveling of the 612 where LDM said, "You will notice the design inspirations from the past, but our job is to look forward. To win, you must always look forward."

Also, I recall from an interview with him about the Enzo that he said he "wanted the design to go too far."

Of one point I am certain: the 612 is not photogenic. Almost every comment I've read here and elsewhere from people who have seen it in the flesh at least liked the car. Most were surprised how much they liked it. As the number of photos increased I saw how the lines changed drastically from color to color and grew curious. With the most recent shots, including the attached, I definitely plan to own one. It is not sensation but it definitely looks sensual and sophisticated, in the right color of course.

More to the point, however, the 612 does not resemble, at least in photos, or remind us of what we all consider proper Ferrari lines, e.g. the 575, 365, 288, 512TR, 328 etc. Compared to the Bentley GT, however, it's gorgeous. But we expect Bentley to be sedate and understated. We expect Ferrari to be moving, rapturous even. Yet, most Ferrari 2+2s have been restrained compared to the coupes, except the 456 arguably.

As for Okuyama and his Japanese influences, I would say they are minimal, at least in terms of most Japanese automotive design. The Japanese as a culture, however, have an aesthetic tradition at least as old and refined as the Italian (post-Roman, obviously), though it expressed itself in very different ways. I would be more concerned if they hired an American designer, to look at American aesthetics of the last forty years. Okuyama himself speaks Italian and Piedmontese. Clearly, he is no newcomer to Italian aesthetics and sensibilities. There was an issue of Forza where they interviewed him about the Enzo, for anyone interested.

I attached a few shots I've picked up from F-chat to illustrate the similarities and the differences. I found the shot from the garage with the 575, the Enzo and the 288 GTO very telling. But the most telling is the shot of the Enzo directly behind the 360. The otherwise stunning 360 looks positively tame and domesticated next to the Enzo. If this is the direction of the next 360, my name will be on the list for a few.

Whatever your preferences, at least salute Ferrari for daring to grow and create, unlike many other car makers.

Forza,

Cavallini

 

William,

I was just thinking of the Mondial. In 1989, along with many other changes, power steering was introduced. I just assumed other models followed suit.

 

"More to the point, however, the 612 does not resemble, at least in photos, or remind us of what we all consider proper Ferrari lines, e.g. the 575, 365, 288, 512TR, 328 etc."

You're right. The 612 reminds us of a Hyundai -- a happy Hyundai.

Not good.

 

The Toyota was designed by Guigiaro-Italdesign.

 

William,

Yes you are right, Scaglietti is just the body builder, and in many cases like the 250 SWB Pininfarina designed the shape and Scaglietti built the body.

BUT Bizzarini NOT Drogo is the man responsble for the 250GTO. Bizzarino also designed the 250 Breadvan (after the GTO I think). Drogo rebodied many 250's to look like GTO's or moderner versions but Bizzarini's claim to fame is that it was he who moved the engine back and designed the car. I guess Drogo may have been involved in the body design but I have never, ever read that anywhere ...

Bizzarini left Ferrari, with many others, in the great walk out ... and formed ATS which was a failure.

EDIT: Designer of 250GTO shape here ... http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=252461#post252461

Pete

 

And who do you suppose Hyundai has imitated more than once?

I also add that the 612 is the most retro Ferrari has ever gone. It looks almost exactly like the Rossellini one-off.

 

The Testarossa was the pinnacle of pininfarina design for Ferrari, The 512TR made it better, and the F512m... well no comment on the F512m. Either way the F40 was the pinnacle of the Super Ferraris the 288GTO was second best after the F40 in Design IMO.

My biggest wish would be for ferrari to somehow make the 512TR a faster better car than the Enzo. somehow coming out with a faster accelerating 512TR that would leave an Enzo in the dust, and also do the same to all cars.

Better yet, a 512TR that would dominate all other cars, that would set new world records all over tracks around the world, and that would kill modded subaru wrx sti's on the street. a 512TR with 8 second 1/4 miles and 0-60mph in 2.5 seconds.

Now if Ferrari only decided to do that with the 512TR, F355, and 328. this world would be perfect.

 

The Toyota Volta looks like the NEXT GENERATION of Lamborghini to me!

Since I just looove Diablos, that rather took me by surprise. I would love to see it in production!

- Julie

 

The sketch of the 612 was fabulous but when it went for production, everything was changed. Was that the fault of Ken or the production engineer. Remember the production engineer has to transform the design to parts that he can press/mould. So I wouldn't blame Ken, it's the people that sign off the design that has to take the blame. Maybe even Luca is resposible!

 

I cant argue with you If only I could get some CF body panels for my 512TR & drop in an enzo engine/trans. Now I know what I want for Christmas LOL