Unless you put both JPM and MS in a BMW, you really don't know who is the fastest driver? (or put them both in a Ferrari).
Here's JPM's stats compared to his rival at BMW, before the start of 04 season: JPM Ralf Starts: 50 115 Wins: 3 6 Fastest Lap: 9 7 Poles: 11 4 Points: 163 235 01' finished: (31pts) 6th (49pts) 4tth 02' finished (50pts) 3rd (42pts) 4th 03' finished (82pts) 3rd (58pts) 5th I believe the numbers speak for themselves and JPM isn't getting the credit he deserves. He makes 1/6th of Ralph's in salaries and still produces more. After all, Ralph and his brother Michael grew up Karting at their parents circuit and this JPM was scouted at a Skip Barber class/fun event. This thread isn't about Ralph, but goes to show you how desperate he's become this year running into others. How would you like to have his job and day in and day out outperform your pears and then instead of a promotion and raise just get a pad on the back while your under performing peer gets it all. Tells you about his attitude and the fact that he does not complain enough to show his outrage. We shall see how he matures in this business, I see him win lots more races given a competitive car. Go figure!
Yes it will be interesting and IMO will make or break his F1 career!. I do seriously hope that McLaren makes a good car next year so we can see this challenge to JPM. Pete
I like JPM, but my initial reaction to his comments weren't favorable. But then I read Nigel Roebuck's article on the matter in Autosport and it presented a perspective I hadn't thought of. And one I'm surprised hasn't been brought up here, either. JPM's frustration seemed born mostly out of the fact that, at Indy last year, he had gone onto the grass to avoid Rubens' Ferrari which was moving in on him. When they touched--something most viewed as a racing incident--Montoya was penalized with that drive-through, ending any hope of a title run. When Michael intentionally pushes wide knowing JPM is attempting to pass on the outside (and please don't waste anyone's time trying to convince me MS didn't know JPM was on the outside of him) he goes unpenalized. For a long time there has been a wide belief up and down the pitlane that Ferrari and Schumacher receive favorable treatment, but while most others toe the F1/BernieCo line and keep their mouth shut, Montoya vented out about equal treatment. It was interesting to note that, with all the controversial manouvers MS has made over the years, the only penalty he's received was for his Bonzai run at Frentzen in Montreal '98. He won the race though, even with a drive-through penalty. I know he was stripped of his points in '97 for the Jerez incident, but it would have been interesting to see what would have resulted had Jacques been forced off and Schumacher went on to win the Title.
He's a future world champion. If not with Mercedes, then his next ride. He has tremondous talent, piss poor personality, but he will be a world champion, and by the way, he makes Ralph look bad. Ralph never challenged his brother as many times as JPM has, and even though Shu has better tires and equipment, JPM is there to challenge on most occassions. Too bad he has absolutely no humility. I've had the unfortunate opportunity (hehehe) to meet him once or twice. Art
This is a BS poll anyone who has seen JPM drive a car realizes he has the potential to be a great driver. He is arguably the best passer in F1 and is the only person over the past two seasons who will attempt to pass MS. Don't get me wrong I love Ferrari and MS is the best and hope he wins his 7th this year......but really this poll does not deserve to be here.
so, JPM is not on pole again... so, MS is ON pole again that's the difference.... and the difference is 0.6 sec ........... ha ha...
I like Ferrari a lot but I like a good race too. If it wasn't for JP the races would be boring. He is a hot blooded south american with a passion for racing and maybe he is a cry baby. I like his brashness and in my opinion adds to F1. Michael is just so good and his car is so good. He is an icon in his own time. A few years ago Ferrari lost to Mercedes but won the next year. Those were two really good years to watch.
I guess I need to copy and post this again... I just have to repost a comment I made on another thread, please bear with me... Hi guys! This is my first post and is something near and dear. I ripped wacko-Frankl in Forza last year because he was all but asking for a date with JPM in the USGP write-up. He responded with a lot of the same Montoya drival I am seeing here, ie."he adds so much to F1", "he is a great interview" (Frankl moaned about having to endure a Hakkinen intreview), "he will be the next heir..." blah, blah, blah. As many have mentioned here, actions talk and BS walks. JPM has never, and will never, have what it takes to be a F1 champ. Unlike MS and others we consider world class drivers, JPM has never been able to deliver with less than a perfect car. Anyone remember 2000, the year after Montoya won the CART championship? Nothing! He was mired in mid-field, blaming the car, the crew, the owner, the other drivers, "I won Indy because of me", etc., etc. Sound familiar? So what happened during his 1999 championship year? To quote the imortal Niki Lauda: "A trained monkey could have won the championship in a car like that!" The US fans (except for the women and a few guys who still lusted after him) lost interst in the class-less champion from last year and moved on. The very reason he takes shots at the US motorsport fans every chance he gets. For the folks who think he is a talented driver - go back and do your homework. Closing your eyes and poking your nose inside someone when you do not have position is not talent. When someone like JV calls him dangerous, you know the guy is pulling some silly "stuff" out on the track. I'm sorry, but the guy is a bum. I can't wait for Kimi to stuff him next year. But then we will again have to endure all the crying and knashing of teeth, no team support, bad car, bad crew, bad owner......hmmm have we been here before? There are so many superior drivers in F1 (aside from the pay-per's), I just do not understand the attraction. If you want personality, I'll take JV or (one of the best!) Jean Alesi. Give me drive, passion, talent (gasp!). THAT is what makes F1 exciting! Not some wanna-be running his mouth. You want that kind of crap, watch wrestling. Oh, and as for not wanting to pass RB? Well, JPM, paybacks are a female dog (please see 2003 USGP). Oh I'm sorry, I got it all wrong! That one was not your fault either! Jim If you look at the tape just before poor little Juanny went for a drive in the pasture, he was able to get inside and next to MS. When he did, he turned right into him - very, very obvious. MS took evasive action and was able to out-accelerate. That is when JPM went to the outside, and I'm sure that is the reason MS gave him a gentle nudge! Listening to JPM piss and moan makes me ill. F1 does separate the men from the boys. I rest my case. Thanks, Jim Gilles27 - I was sitting in Stand H last year at Indy and saw first hand JPM put his right front wheel into RB's left rear. The only evasive action Montoya took was to make sure he didn't get tangled up with RB as he came around. Don't get me wrong guys, JPM probably does belong in F1. I just do not see him putting it all together to make a serious run - and that is what it takes to make a champion. Being agressive and competative are fine qualities. How many other world class drivers over the years had these same qualities? THe diference between all them and JPM is that without a small dash of intelligence thrown in, you just become dangerous. His flashes of quality driving are followed by his typical idiocy - and it seems the quality side is becoming less and less. It is interesting that Alonso (after tasting a little success) became a little "Montoya'ish". Someone must have sat him down and explained a few things to him. It would appear that he is smart enough to take heed. In racing, business, and life for that matter, respect is earned - not demanded. I wish someone would sit JPM down and explain that. If they have, Montoya just never got it, and I think his driving reflects that. IMHO! Jim
I always find the maverick more fun to watch. What is F1? Its a sports TV show... that's all. Some of you guys come-down a bit too serious with your dislike of this guy. He is not marrying your daughter, just offering a different personality from the button-down, calm, corporate boys of F1. We can't all be accountants.
The post about JPM being a one lap untalented drive is a crock of BS. Just look at his achievements, compare him to Ralf, the facts speak for themselves. How long has MS been driving F1 compared to JPM? IT took MS several years before he really started winning. Attitude problem? Why is it that everyone thinks Senna was the best F1 driver ever yet no one mentions what a ruthless, aggressive, uncooperative driver he was? Man, some of you guys are deadset against JPM no matter what he does.
You guys are harsh, recent post says he will never be a F1 champion! What short memory, wasn't he runner up last year? So are you saying he is no better than all the other drivers who finish below him yet he earn more points? Are you saying that Ralf is a better driver than JPM? If finishing 2nd in the driver points is not impressive than what is? MS has been doing it for over 10 years, he just has more experience. Yet, the post goes on and say that even though he won Indy it was all due to the car. Now that is what i call a predisposed disposition, set your conclusion and spin the facts to make it the argument. What has Kimi, Rueben, Ralf, Alonso won? Let's stick to the facts. Too aggresive? Again, look at how Senna drove and look at how MS shuts the door on other drivers. Nice guys do not finish on the podium.
Let's see......MS qualify first, JPM qualify 2nd, Rueben 5th, Ralf 6th, so what is the excuse now? JPM had a better car than both Rueben and Ralf right? We're not comparing apples to apples here. Ferrari has the best car and the top driver, to come in a close second is very impressive. MS even admitted that he took it easy during the final section of his quaifying lap. That goes to show how much better he and the car is over everyone else. These are facts, not opinions.
I think it is a mute point arguing about someone's driving ability because of his attitude. It is not objective and does not and will not affect one's drving ability. There are all kinds of data (no one can argue with data, or can you?)to support JPM is a damn good driver despite the fact he drives an inferior car. If the stats can not be convincing then there is no point in arguing! Only time will tell. But for now, GO SCHUMI & FERRARI! Enjoy the race tomorrow.
This is starting to sound like 13 year old girl fighting about which Boy band is the best. Most of us, including myself, have very little idea what it takes to make it to the top the racing world, but I can tell you that knowledge is not gained by sitting on a couch, watching others on TV do it, and then judging them.
Asianbond, I think you are refering to my post as I always refer to JPM as a one lap wonder. I just feel the need to correct you on some incorrect points: MS won his first race exactly 1 year after he started, he won the WC only 2 years (I think) after he started ... so you are 100% wrong about MS taking ages to get up to speed. MS's very first race at Spa in a Jordan, he qualified 5th or 7th ... and a Jordan is not any where near a Williams. That is REAL natural talent. Anybody that sits in a Williams should be able to get a top 5 grid in their first race if they can turn a steering wheel ... but a Jordan in (I think) only their second year in F1 ... Read my post about 'MS and his swerves ...' ... I definitely think Senna was ruthless, etc. but the difference to JPM is that he was also fast ... Regarding your last comment, some of us have been involved in motorsport since we had nappies on and have raced some too, thus we can spot talent when it is there, JPM is no Senna or even MS. I think he is equivalent talent wise to Damon Hill except he has a bit more bravo. The problem is that his bravo is what lets him down, because there is little brain activity happening ... Now if he had bags of natural talent (which Damon Hill also did not have, but made up in lots of ways for intelligence and persistence) then a lot of this would happen naturally, but instead he needs to use 95% of his brain to keep the car on the track, and thus when a passing move against somebody with REAL talent is required there is not enough capacity left. Now JPM is not the only one racing in F1 who has this problem, I have continuously blamed the lack of excitement in F1 on the lack of REAL talent in the driving department. Yes JPM won Indy so did Damon Hill's Dad BTW (also low on natural talent, but made up for by brilliant concentration abilities and smarts) but Indy more than most other races is a huge team effort and he was driving for arguably the best team ... who ever was driving that car and did what they were told would have won! His Cart championship ... lets see we now have Tracy leading that (if it still exists) ... no need to say anymore. But I will add there has been NO talent in CART for over 10 (?) years ... since Mario stopped racing! Cart is dead and America needs to pull its socks up and make a decent series OR keep it as a quaint thing that it really is. F1 will not be looking to America for future F1 stars again for a very, very long time ... mainly thanks to JPM's poor performance. So real racing has correctly returned its focus to Euro and England. Seriously I hope Ron Dennis can make JPM in to a real driver, he did it to Hakenin, but the difference there is that Hakenin was REAL fncken fast, just unable to keep it on the track and get through the first corner ... Pete ps: I also did not vote as the options are a personal attack on JPM ... I'm only interested in his on track performances. EDIT: When JPM first visited Melbourne he went to a local kart track and did many laps. Interestingly he did not set the world on fire ... Mark Weber has the lap record at that track! Now yes Mark has probably done 100 times more laps than JPM but still I return to my natural talent comment ... bravery is only a small part of the equation, in fact it can ruin lap times because you go too deep into a corner! Remember Jim Clark was one of the fastest ... hardly a bravo type of person.
Well said Pete. I have been watching these guys since the late 60's. I have seen many come and go and too many perish. Attitude does indeed play an important role in driver conduct on the track. Montoya has been in the spotlight long enough to be able to figure it out, and he will never change. People like to compare his brashness with Senna. What a crock, Senna lived and breathed racing. On race day JPM looks like he is going to the gallows and seems more worried about his next photo op. His podiums look like he is about to cry and his interviews just blame everyone but his own lack of ability. He expects it all to be handed to him, just because. I'd say at least a third of the grid is as fast, if not faster, than him. As I said in an earlier post, in a less than perfect car he is useless. Put him in a Minardi and Zolt would dust his shorts. We saw stark evidence of that last year early on when the Williams was still off a bit. Ralph was killing him. I think that just a touch of humility, and a lot more focus, would bring his on track performance around and he could MAYBE be one of the better drivers in the circus. I also think the reason he is so hotly debated is that he is the irritating little fly that will not go away. In my opinion, his behavior, both on and of the track, is more detrimental to F1 than any Ferrari/MS dynasty. Punting someone off in frustration is not some kind of special ability that should be admired. And who wants to listen to an overpaid average driver snivel every single time he hits the track - or someone else. It's amusing to listen to the USGP announcers rant on about JPM returning to, "....where he achieved glory winning the Indy 500......" - trying to tie something/someone to the US fan base. Everyone I have ever sat around looks at each other and says, "SO WHAT!" We got over him a long time ago, and it didnt take long to figure him out. I will lay odds that he will (try to) punt MS off tomorrow morning in the first turn. "OOOOO, I'll show him and the world what a capable driver I am! Yeah, look at me, I'm the best!" Jim
I don't think anyone would make the argument that JPM is clearly faster than MW or vice versa. They have not driven cars that are anywhere near each other in capabilities. It makes comparison of driving talent even less meaningful. I think MW is an awesome driver and definitely a possible heir to the WDC throne, but to say one is better than another, could that be a bit much? FYI: My favorite team would include both JPM & MW.
Again, you guys are trying to compare him to the greatest talented drivers of all time, no one is saying that. All I'm saying is that based on the current F1 drivers around, he is a more talented driver than everyone else except for MS based on results. We can argue how some others in theory are better based on karting lap times (weber) but then that's all hypothetical. Look at Coulthard and Kimi this year, what have they done? Why is Rueben getting a free ride? Don't you think with that machine and the support he shouldn't be finishing higher than JPM?
PSK- that is some amazing logic....you're saying that JPM won the Indy because he was with the best team and anyone in that driver's seat could have done it. Answer this question, which team has been the top team in F1 for the past 5-6 years? If it's Ferrari then why doesn't the same logic apply to MS' success? No one said that JPM was better than MS, but I am saying he is a more talented driver than everyone else in F1 today based on results. It seems like no matter how many races JPM wins it doesn't matter in your book because no matter what you PERSONALLY think he doesn't have talent. How do you quantify true driver ability? You can't, all you can do is compare a driver's performance to their current peers. The variables are just too much to make a fair comparison across the decades of racing.
How close was Kimi to being WDC last year? he must've gone on quite the vacations to lose so much talent in a few months.....
Asianbond, maybe you have not been paying attention for the last 10 years or so, MS can deliver with less than optimal equipment - something JPM will never do. With his uncanny ability it is no wonder MS is putting on a clinic every race day. JPM's lack of pace and success the year AFTER he won CART showed his true potential - and that was with a still very competative Tracy car. Juan just could not deliver, and he blamed all around for his failure(s). As I said before, sound familiar? You want to talk facts and figures? I thought it very interesting that tin top boy Jeff Gordon was so close to JPM at Indy! Here is a guy with virtually no open wheel experience (not counting his karting days) and is probably just another test away from embarrassing Master Juan. But of course we would then have to endure another JPM piss-and-moan session about lack of team support. THere have been a few posts here stating that since we have not competed at that level, we can not comment "from our recliners". Well, aside from my long ago karting days, MX, and years of drag racing, I have been watching the circus for about 35 years. Not that that makes me any more qualified to comment than anyone else who visits here. I just find it interesting that even mild-mannered David Hobbs slams JPM (and did so again at the start of the race today, Har!), AND everyone up and down pit lane, including his own team, are telling him to shut up and race. He needs to figure out that it is not all about HIM - because that will be his undoing until he (hopefully soon) retires. Jim ps Today I noticed the talentless (your description) DC and KR were hanging pretty tough with JPM with half the car Juan has.
http://planetf1.com/news/story_15483.shtml I don't know. That is a kind of major problem. I guess the McLaren car does well against a non-functioning Williams.
Hello Mr Payne, I was obviously talking about the first part of the race! (You don't work for the liberal media, do you?) I take it the following was caused by brakes too? http://planetf1.com/news/story_15488.shtml I'm sure the cause of this was some sort of illegal (please pick your cause of the day) blocking, passing, traction control, too long for the lights to go out, dirt in my eye, MS looked at me, a photog looked at me, the sun was in my eyes.......and I WILL be asking the FIA for some clarification. Jim
