The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Well, I think the evidence is in, but without verdict at this point.

Complicated by the fact that even owners of unmolested race Ferraris do not have the traceability, of say, a .50 cal. aircraft machine gun.

These cars were built of common materials by uncommon men, who had no idea the historical (hysterical) reverence that would one day be assigned to their efforts.

It makes it more of an archeological effort, more than a research effort.
It's more like searching for DNA from a bone frag, IMO

I think Napolis has a big book or article in mind as a grand unveiling, rather than showing his cards at this time. Note his involvement on ANY of these criticism threads is down to..... nill!

 

Guys, I don't think anyone has criticized Jim for what he is doing, and I'm not sure where people are getting that from. I actually admire his undertaking. I really hope it is 0846 but as other's have said, that doesn't mean I just accept it. I will be first in line if a book is published on his findings, it's like trying to find a tomb in the valley of the kings. I would love to see his car in person some day.

And what do you mean "White Man"? I'm no Manga Cake! I'm Italian so I guess I have an olive complection!

 

i hope he has a book or something coming out about the life and history of 0846, i want an autographed copy!!!! count me in !!!

 

Macca, you must have a stunning collection and archive. thanks for sharing so much in these threads. i have learned lots of new information in these thread!

 

I use "what you mean 'we,' white man?" whenever someone says "we" in a broad manner.

Old, tasteless joke:

The Lone Ranger and Tonto are riding along through the sagebrush when suddenly about a million Indians come riding over the hill. Our two heroes are soon surrounded, and things look bad for them. The Lone Ranger turns to Tonto and says, "Tonto, we're surrounded. What are we going to do?" Tonto turns to the Lone Ranger and replies, "What you mean 'we,' white man?"

 

So, you're both saying that the verdict has already come in??? By that I mean, everybody has already reached their conclusion and are anxiously awaiting a book on P4 Ferrari serial number 0846, OR are they awaiting a book on Jim's car project? As you can judge from my question, the question itself does NOT assume that both 0846 and Jim's project are one in the same. As you said, Jim has been quiet on all of this. But from the sound of all the postings on this board,

EVERYBODY has already started ASSUMING that Jim's car IS IN FACT 0846!

Can you see what myself and P4Replica have been saying all along? People on this board have already started to "drift" their opinion toward the fact that his car IS INDEED serial number 0846 WITHOUT ANY PROOF BEING PRESENTED WHATSOEVER!!!!!

It certainly looks like everybody is already assuming that his car is 0846 and is eagerly anticipating the book/article/whatever. Would you be so eager to anticipate a book/article/whatever if you knew from the start that the car was NOT 0846? I doubt it. So in that respect, the F-chat world has already allowed themselves to be convinced that the car is indeed real and authentic without any real proof being submitted.

Pardon me, but I do not believe that is scientific thinking. Proof should come first, then acceptance. I am not criticizing Jim or his car any more than I would doubt many such tales concerning collectible cars, aircraft, Egyptian statues, or whatever.

 

Why don't you talk about something useful for a change...

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20174

 

Horsefly,
FerrariChat.com is a great site but just because the proof has not been displayed/posted here, does not mean that the proof does not exist. Note: I am not saying either way whether Jim's car is 0846 or not ....

That is all I am going to say, just wait for the article ... it is out of FerrariChats hands.

Pete

 

Pete, I don't really think that it is out of FerrariChats hands. I think that was shown earlier in the thread, when the details really start to get close to the target, some people just can't handle it. I think all the info already exists and probably has been discussed by several people during the history of the car. But the subject seems to be too much of a "sacred cow" among the Ferrarista. And they get their feathers ruffled when the discussion starts to upset their applecart.

 

Hello,

As for Jim's P4....
Ferrari will probably never give you a written document...too many secrets..

I have seen his P4 and the restoration in progress.
I have also see the proof, documents(pics etc).

Many would not want to believe it... It's the real deal...

My 2 cents....

 

Actually seeing the real thing? HA! It makes much more sense to guess without ever actually having any evidence in front of you. Riiiiiight...

 

Utter crap Horsefly, utter crap.

Jim has quite rightly stopped posting the details ... some of us know more than others and would just like you all to shut up and read the article when it comes out, which ever direction it goes. If Jim does not want to post it here then so be it.

I personally think he has done the right thing, ie. stop theorising and give the evidence to the right people and when they have made their decision we will all find out. To have kept on posting here would have been silly, when in the end FerrariChat does NOT matter (ie. we might have come to a conclusion that was wrong ... and yes pointless, etc.), the right people do ... and guess what, they are not going to believe a chat site either.

Horsefly stop with the BS and take your medication
Pete

 

I have seen many of the p3's and 4's out there.
I have even talked to people that worked on the P4 back in the day(Race team members)...
They have told me what I was to look for......

 

As we seem to have occassionally the same questions over and over asked, and some people (like Horsefly ) think things are been hidden, here are the first 10 links I found on a search on the OLD FerrariChat site.

Obviously you will not find as much information on this NEW site because this site has not been around as long ... searching the old site is not that hard ... but anyway now I have made it easier.

In no particular order:
Looking for P4 pics
330 P3 s/n 0844
P4 Chassis Painted
More P4
330 P4 Question
What do people know about the "older" ferrari cars?
One way to get the unattainable
P4 Color ?
Wayne P3 Nose inlet?
P4 Photos

Plenty of interesting stuff to have a look at ...

Pete

 

Here is some more interesting threads for P3/4 junkies :

P3/P4? Pictures required
Serial number nut ... you might not want to go to this thread as Horsefly is discussing Corvette serial numbers again ...
Pics of #0900 for James
P4 Being Painted
Water hose burst !
The new direction in restoration
Replicar question
More More P4
P4 Rivets and glue...
P4 Panel Final Paint
P4 Being Rivited
Help in identifying please... P3?

Pete

 

David Clarke P4/ 250's etc
Daytona Prototype for sale !!!
P4 Nose
Details P4
P4 in Prime
201ci 36v 24 plugs 4 coils... ... Note engine size ...
P4 Dash
P4 Nose Ducting
P4 Rolling Along
Wanna build a P4? ... Piper bodywork on ebay.

That will do ...
Pete

 

P4Replica has started a couple of queries about the engine and gearbox, and I've posted some data gleaned from books and magazines - which has been either ignored, or skipped over with groundless speculation, or with the suggestion of deliberate falsification of engine parts.The details didn't "get close to the target", counter-evidence was presented but ignored - no cow is sacred, and most of us are taking it as it comes.

I've posted something about the accepted levels of provenance and history/historical correctness for old tube-framed racing cars...........which has been ignored. Horsefly's analogy with Corvettes is not relevant; this is Ferrarichat, not Corvettechat, or Replicachat, or even Authenticoldburntpartschat!

In the early days Jim posted about what he was finding with his chassis.......which has been ignored by some. If the combination of all of the data and pictures that have been posted over the last two years isn't enough to even begin to penetrate some people's shutters, then even a book won't shift them.........unless it's dropped on their heads from a great height.

Paul M

 

no, no, I'm sure that's true. My sarcasm was not directed towards you. Having seen the P4 in question and the accompanying documents, you are far more qualified to comment than most.

 

Hi
As this weekend's the Greenwich Concourse www.greenwichconcours.com and I'm showing my Lola I'm a bit busy. The Internet is an amazing thing. FChatter Wolfgang is coming in from Germany to meet a bunch of other FChatters, see my P 3/4, have a ride in J6, and join us at the Concourse.

The research continues and as some have surmised, those who've seen some of it are keeping an open mind. (Including Ferrari S.P.A and The FCA where my car will debut and everyone who attends and want's to will have a chance to see it for themselves.) Around that time several articles will probably be out "warts and all." As I've said many times IMO this is the reasonable way to proceed.

As for FChat. Rob has done all of us a great service and in recognition of that those who have supported his efforts will get a preview of these articles in the Rossa Section before they come out.

Paul M (Macca)
Your last post reminds me of something that James Mitchner commented on in his book
"SPACE."
During the period of the "Dark Ages" one of the most spectacular Celestial displays in recorded history took place. It was so bright, lasted so long, that it was noticed and caused much reaction, including the building of Temples and written recording, throughout much of the world EXCEPT in Europe. In Europe there is no written recording of that event. There is however much written record of those times and what they did to the person who pointed out that the sun did not revolve around the earth. Mitchner posited that the "Dark Ages" were so called not because nothing came out of them, but because the Light/Truth, the most spectacular Celestial display of all time did not seem to reach into them.
Best

 

Oh, sorry, my mistake.

 

Believers <<<<<<<<<< >>>>>>>>>Skeptics









The party is over here!!! <<<<<<<<<

 

Sorry Paul M, but we're just going to have to disagree on this. My analogies comparing Ferrari restoration to other rare car restoration and multi-million dollar aircraft restoration are right on target. Remember the statue of justice holding the scales in her hands? Justice is blindfolded. She weighs the facts without seeing who or what she is weighing. To say that the almighty Ferrari has a "special" set of standards for weighing and evaluating is total bunk. As I've said many times, if a person tried to get away with such tactics of authenticity on a common used car lot, you would have a lawsuit slapped against you by an angry owner within days after discovering that the purchased automobile had actually been constructed out of disjointed pieces.

That may, or may not be the case with Jim's car. But the Ferrarista have a wonderful sliding standard by which they wish to evaluate things.

Apparently Miss Justice likes to lift her blindfold a little bit when she is weighing the facts during a Ferrari debate. But from the postings on this board, I think that some of the Ferrarista are lifting the blindfold for her.
And perhaps more importantly, they can't stand the fact that some of us notice that she is taking a peek at the scales every now and then.

 

But Horsefly,

ENZO FERRARI sold cars as new, made up of used or reconditioned pieces!!!!

Admittedly usually to unwitting Americans, but still...........and they were happy to get them!

 

Er, I don't think so Pete. You seem to have (accidentally) missed a few - like for instance:
2004 FCA Annual in San Francisco. Who's going? http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/251280/234104.html?1051149037
Check out the posts dated around 04/22/2003. Looks like people were being told that Jim's car WAS #0846 ....
Over a year ago - long before some of the other later discoveries were made.

 

Nice jab (I take it in stride). But as we know, Ferrari restorers don't worry too much about serial numbers because they have a way of "disappearing".