Guys, Went out for a drive tonight in my TR, as I have away with work in Europe, and the car was excellent, then as I was approaching home my car started to run really badly and then cut out a few times. I also noticed that the car is really down on power-I mean you accelarate and it feels sluggish as if someone is holding it back. The car starts okay and seems to go up the rev range stationary, but when you drive its really not right. No smoke from the exhaust at all, thought the left hand exhaust doesn't seem to have as much pressure as the right. Any ideas or suggestions? One theory a friend said was maybe the baffles in the exhaust have broken down on the silencer? Pete :-(
You are running on one bank! It's probably the "most" common problem on TRs........one of the fuel pumps is out. This is due to a corroded connection of the fuel pump wire, going into the main electrical mother board. The board is found just behind the spare tire. Look for brown discoloration on the white connector. Remove the wires.........one for each fuel pump, and make sure it has a clean, good connection. On mine, the connector at the mother board broke.........I had to buy a new board. Another thing to check are the fuses. Also, make sure the coil wires are connected securely to the coils........if one becomes loose, you will run on one bank........however, this can cause a FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Henry, thank you for a very quick reply!! I will check the car first thing int he morning as it is currently 1.00am here and some how my neighbours won't like me working on the car ;-) and the car is very warm at the moment as it is slightly warm in the UK at the moment! I will look at the things you have mentioned and see what I can come up with. Looking in other post about powerloss people have mentioned a "bank" light coming on, excusing my ignorance but do TR's have this? Also have you suffered the same issue? Thanks again for the reply so quick! Pete
The "bank" light refers to an impending FIRE in the exhaust.......usually the cats. This happens when the car is hot, then the coil wire gets loose on one side. Fuel flows, but does not get burnt.........this raw gas goes into the hot cat and.............FIRE!!!!!!!!!!! You would be able to smell raw gas out the exhaust. There are two lights, one for each bank. They should go on when you start the car, and then go off. They are in the center of the warning lights.........in the US, we have this........I don't know about the Euro cars. I have not had this happen, but have heard of it. Your problem is more likely the wire connector problem, to the electrical board.
Pete -- If you have a GB version TR (i.e., catless) I believe that you won't have the slow down warning lights (or have to worry about a fire), but it's got to be a dead bank as Henry suggested. I'd confirm/deny ignition presence on each bank first (just cause it's easiest IMO) -- if it passes that, then you'll have to check the fuel pump operation (which can be done fairly easily by removing the fuel pump relays and then "jumping" the fuel pump relay sockets -- if you're interested in instructions give a shout).
Hi Steve and Henry, Thanks for the pointers and detailed reply. My father and I checked the car over today and it seems the right hand bank is not firing. There seems to be no spark at all. We checked the fuses and relays and they seemed to be okay-Steve can you let me know about the "shorting", drop me a PM if that is easier, thanks-. We started the car and it started. Swopped the coild over and it refuses to start. They seems to be some fuel smell when it attempts to start. Swopped them back its okay. Would lead me to believe its a faulty coil. Is there any way of diagnosing these or an ideal of cost-even in US Dollars as it will give me a rough idea? The car is a 86 Swiss car and has no cats on it. Thanks again guys for you advice, it is really appreciated! Pete
Pete -- The results of your test of swapping coils is a good indication that one of the coils is bad (only one of the coils is used to supply a tach signal that keeps the tachyometric relay closed which keeps the fuel pumps running -- so when you've got the good one in that slot the engine will run on one bank; whereas, it won't run when the "bad" one's there). As far as estimated cost, I like to check: www.allferrariparts.com www.ferraripartsexchange.com since they (graciously) list prices on-line, but T. Rutlands IME often (but not always) has slightly better prices for those of us in the US. For PNs, the 587/90 SPC lists two different coils depending on version: 2 each 124273 Power module with coil -- Not for CAT 2 each 143413 Power module with coil -- For CAT It's not the clearest PN explanation IMO -- my guess is that if you have any version that came with cats originally you'd go with the 143413. If the car is a Standard version that never had cats (and the chassis SN would be below 82966) then you'd need the 124273 -- but reconfirm with your parts supplier. Glad to post the fuel pump jumping stuff, but I doubt that you have a simultaneous ignition and FP problem. The jpeg below shows (an edited) page D23 from the 330/84 TR WSM. (With engine and key "off") You unplug the fuel pump relays and then touch a jumper at the socket between the "87" terminal position (which is always +12V -- even with key "off") and the "30" terminal position (which goes to the FP motor "+" side). The first test level is just to confirm that you can hear each pump running when you jump its respective relay socket (i.e., if either is "silent" then you know that you've got a problem in that area).
Steve, Thanks for the detailed reply. I checked the prices and there seem to be around $70US or about £40GBP. I will call Maranello UK in the morning. I have read other post regarding bank failures and I am concerned about running it. It ran a total of a 1 mile before it went into the garage and I am worried about washing the bores-would this be a problem, if so what would you say is a remedy to clean it-i.e oil down the bores or something else as this is a flat 12 engine? I am just concerned if I have caused any long term damage. Thanks once again, Pete
(OK -- I confess that I'm getting lazy, but) I'm not sure that I would worry about it that much in your case (i.e., needing to artificially relubricate the cylinder walls before restarting) -- JMO.
Steve, I have spoken to my mechanic and he reckons that the module on top of the coil maybe faulty-he is sending a couple out to me tonight. Spoke to Maranello UK and they have quoted $550 (+tax!) EACH! That is frankly outrageous and I refuse to pay that much. Looking at www.allferrariparts.com they seem to list the to ignition coils as AEI 500C and AEI 600A. Looking at mine, I am convinced mine says AEI 500E!! Now very confused. My serial number 6xxxxx... Thanks Pete
Same thing happens here with F parts (even from the better-priced suppliers) -- sometimes the price for a certain thing is just completely unreasonable. F PN Confusion? -- That's "situation normal" IME . I didn't explain it well before, but the reason that TR SPC listing for the coils is so unclear IMO is that there is a distinct separate "CAT" version TR (and they go to some lengths to describe the various "versions" in the SPC) -- so for a "US" version TR do I get the "Not for CAT" coil? I'll check the Diagnois Sheets tonight that I have (I can't recall the exact No.s I've got -- but they cover the TR and 412 ignitions) -- IIRC they've got some manufacturer model no. stuff for the major electronic components (but sounds like your Mechanic has you covered).
Steve, Thanks for you help and in advance. I will double check the Coil part number tomorrow, it could be the way I have read it and it is actually a "C" instead of an "E". I will also fit the modules as well-I have them on sale or return which is handy. They are about $55 dollars each. My mechanic seems to think it is the problem as one of his customers had a similar problem-but he kept driving with the problem. I checked a number of motor factors and they don't even list them! One point blank refused to look as soon as I mentioned the F-word!! Another guy mentioned that the problem sounded familar and it was a fuel relay-looking back on some previous posts you have helped people with there seems to be a number of relays that could also be at fault... Shame the car isn't running-the weather is stunning here at the moment! Thanks a million for your help so far! Pete
That does not sound "unreasonable" except in the context of a Ford or some other high volume part and here's why. These parts were made in low volume for a limited number of cars. I have no idea how many Ferrari ordered when the model was in production, but let's say it was roughly 1/10 of the total production of the TR (vs the 512) - and let's say it was 500 for production and 500 for spares. That's a production run for the manufacturer of 1000, all built in 84 or 85. If any more are needed, who is going to tool up for 100, or even 500 unless there is a guaranteed sale. With reliability being relatively good, the parts may never be sold before the owners find ways of adapting most cars to modern systems the way the Mustang, Camaro and even Audi owners have done. And some open up these things and repair them using their now fairly prevalent electronic/chip experience and tools. In the aircraft industry we see this all the time and with the rule of thumb that requires at least 100% mark up for new parts on current production components to cover distribution and overhead and render a return on capital of 15-20% (over all products as some lose money even with that mark up) - we will find that these costs are and will go through the roof. Cottage industries have sprung up amongst the retired baby boomers doing repairs and fabricating substitutes pricing labor at well below market for various generally private reasons. Hence I have had some Audisport parts "copied" at 25% of the cost of getting them made ex factory, but you wait, there is no warranty and availability is uncertain. So while I understand your frustration, and share it, what is the alternative other than from a wrecked car or a shop rebuild with all the questionable issues associated with that?
Pete -- I was wrong about Diagnosis Sheet No. 1 showing the coil type (it only lists the TR and 412 engine types that use the Marelli Microplex MED 120B ignition ECU). The TR WSM lists two coil types: AEI 500C for a K-JET without O2 sensors and without cats using a Marelli Microplex MED 120A or AEI 500G for a KE-JET with O2 sensors and with cats using a Marelli Microplex MED 120B/D When you say your TR is a "Swiss car without cats" does that mean that it did come with cats originally, but they've been removed? Do you know if it's K-Jet, KE-Jet without lambda, or KE-Jet with lambda?
I agree that it is a low volume produced car and in turn the more they make, in reality the cheaper it should become. but it just annoys me the cost of some items and yet others are more than reasonable. We run numerous Lancia's in our household and say for example a bolt in a Lancia Bag would be say $1, where as the SAME bolt in a Fiat bag would be 40 cents! That isn't right. I will either check to see if the coil can be tested and rebuilt (I am in the very fortunate position to get things tested and rebuilt at work) or if it is completely faulty I will order it from the US. Which year is your TR? Pete
Steve, Thanks for checking for me, it appreciated. I will check tonight to see whcih numbers i have. The Marelli Microsplex, is that the module that sits on top of the coil? The car is an early swiss car, I don't think it had cats-they doesn't seem to be a cat warning light either. Thanks Pete
Pete -- The Marelli Microplex unit is the main ignition ECU mounted over the LH rear wheel well. What's the "engine type" shown on the small raised plaque area on the top of the engine block near the RH side distributor (should be F113...)? (By your description I'm still unsure if you have a standard version TR from Switzerland or an actual CH version TR.)
Steve, Thanks I will check that tonight too. The car was sold new in Switzerland, but I don't know if the early version was fitted with cats...unless you know better? Thanks again, Pete
Steve, Good news! I changed the module on the coil and........job done!! Car runs soooo much better now. They worked out to be about $50 each-I replaced both to be on the safe side. Odd thing about the coil, is my number is AEI 500E. Anyway I have found a supplier who has quoted me about $190 for a replacement part. I will get further details and post them for anyone else. Thank you so much for all your help on this, it is really appreciated! I am hoping for the good weather to stay and the big banana can come out to play-I saw a lovely red TR this morning, so that was a good omen! Thanks to henryk also. Thanks again, Pete
It sure is..I was so excited that I was driving it again I forgot to get the engine type. I will check tomorrow as I will probably take it to work. I will let you know. Thanks again, Pete
In my hunt for a replacement coil I also came accross this issue. AEI 500C is for a KE Jet equiped car with no CATS and no O2 sensors. AEI 500E is for US vehicle with CATS and O2 sensors. AEI 500C also was fitted to a 1990 Lamborghini LM002.
Well, it is my turn now... I took her out for a spin, she was running fine and then she started running on one bank. It was trouble on the passanger side. She starts up fine on one bank. So I swapped the coils and the car would not start. I switched them back and she starts fine but only on one bank. I have (AEI 500 C). Does anyone know where we can find this today? I am not sure what is the problem here. Thanks in advance. Haig
Haig, Juri lists coils and/or modules in Ferrari Ads. Can't tell your year but here is one listed for 89-90 only: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=4135 I've communicated with him before about the earlier coils and modules and he had multiple variations in stock. He's in Houston TX. Good luck!
