F360 Track and Road Tires

hello , i have the potenza RE 11 on my 360 ,and they are great they stick like heel

 

I have an interest in this topic also.

I'm finding it pretty tough to find sticky rubber in OEM size, particularly for the front, 215/45.

It seems 235/40 would be a pretty close circumference match but 245/40 even closer. Anyone know if a 245/40 can go on the standard 7.5" rim and / or whether there are any clearance issues?

Also, if increasing to say 235 or 245 on front what's the appropriate thing to do at the rear end which is standard 275/40? I'm thinking something in the order of a 305/35.

Any tips, pointers or advice greatly appreciated.

 

I have stuck with the P Zero, plenty of grip for both road and track. Just be careful in the rain!

 

I'm on my 3rd set of RE-11. My favorite current street tire, as fast as the Toyo R888 (a track tire) with confirmed telemetry at the same racetrack in Riverside, CA. Two of my cars are on RE-11.

The RE-11 is faster than the pseudo-racing tires that came with my Scuderia, the Pirelli Corsa System, and these Pirelli along with the new Michelin Pilot Super Sports are the only fairly decent tires that Ferrari has used in their street cars. Every other tire Ferrari has used is just horrible.

On the Scuderia I ran 245/35R19 and 285/35R19 and now I switched to 255/35R19 and 285/35R19, because these cars need more front grip.

In a Modena I would use 235/40R18 and 275/40R18 on the stock wheels.

Last month I lapped Sebring on the RE-11, and they were within 1 second of my Hoosier A6 lap times, it was my first day at Sebring.

Note: the RE-11 are W-rated, this means they're certified for speeds up to 168mph. I haven't found a racetrack where I can reach those speeds, so no problem at all in U.S. In the rest of the world without the speed enforcement from U.S., these tires might not be convenient, as a Modena is capable to exceed 168 mph (actual speed, the speedometer is off by over 10 mph at these speeds in modern Ferraris)

 

+1 I've had RE-11s on my car for >3000 miles, street and one track event. I'll add that they are fairly quiet and ride well, too. The only thing I'd want more is crisper turn-in, but they are plenty responsive the way they are and it's actually an asset for the track, where they are predictable and fast. They held up well, too. Mine are stock sizes on OEM starfish wheels.

 

Thanks F430GT for the information here. I'm just wondering about any effect in balance when increasing tyre width up front without a corresponding increase at rear?

I presume you're also saying there are no clearance issues with the 235/40 combination?

 

Let me also add that the RE-11s are pretty good in the rain. I took my car for its annual service last week in what turned out to be a torrential down pour. Still stuck like glue.

As for changing balance by going upsize in front whilst staying with the original size in back, that could be a problem. 360s already have a tendency towards terminal oversteer once the envelope is exceeded, and larger fronts vs. stock rears will tend to exacerbate oversteer. 430s have less of that issue.

 

Yes, I the same occurs to me. What sizes are you running front and rear?

 

OEM sizes. The track tells you quite a bit about your car (and yourself). No way I'd add any more oversteer to my 360. If you upsize the fronts, my suggestion is to upsize the rears by the same amount.

I don't know if oversize tires would fit the fender wells but based on what I've heard with people going up to insane sizes (>300mm) and/or using spacers, I would think you could fit them.

Whether that's a good idea is another story. 7.5 inches wide isn't a very wide wheel, and I don't know that I'd want to put an overly fat tire on a relatively narrow rim, even if the tire maker's rim size chart says you can do it. Even if they "fit," there would be less sidewall support which usually translates to more sidewall flex and reduced steering response, if not less grip that might offset any gains by the wider tread.

No doubt I'll now get a flood of responses by others saying they have no problems with superwide tires on stock wheels. Pay most attention to those who say they've tracked their cars with those setups and found handling to be faster and predictable. I can't say one way or the other since I've not tried these other setups.

 

What kind of alignment are you running, what racetrack, what kind of lap times, have you checked your alignment?

The 360 is not a tail happy car, it just comes with very little toe-in at the rear and it rides on the bump stops at the limits. It is an alignment problem (fix it at your local tire shop), combined with awfully soft springs. Most Ferrari owners never check the alignment on their cars. In 2 years, I have done over a dozen of alignments to my Scuderia, and tested over a dozen different tire size/brands combinations. Skinny or wider tires won't solve the 360 Modena snap oversteer problems at the limits.

The 360 and 430 (Scuderia or not, Stradale or not) share suspension geometry, and setup data works both ways.

The 235 tire I recommended above has a lower profile so it keeps the same ratio of circumference compared to stock, while increasing front grip, which is something all the modern Ferrari need. It took Ferrari many years in Racing to find out about that mess. The very first Ferrari street car getting the benefit from the Racing programs in regards to tires and chassis balance is the 599 GTO.

So, in a Modena I would use the RE-11 on 235/40R18 and 275/40R18 on the stock wheels, and set the rear toe to 0.25 degrees toe-in per side (0.50 degrees total toe-in).

By the way, notice that real Ferrari racing programs (not the Gentlemen Challenge stuff) use gigantic front tires. The 360 NGT, F430 GT2 and F458 ALMS cars use a 300mm front tire and a 310mm rear tire, these cars need a lot of front grip.

I have run up to a 315 front tire in my Scuderia and up to a 345 at the rear. Stock fenders, no rubbing, just proper settings. 235 is not a wide tire, it is narrow, the 215 is just painfully narrow.

The recommended RE-11 sizes I gave for the Modena do not rub at all, and no modifications are required.

In regards, to the Michelin Pilot Super Sports, I would not consider them until I see the SCCA folks running it in the street tire classes, and the Time Attack guys running it in the street tire classes as well, and winning on them. So far the dominant street tires are the RE-11, RS3, R1R, XS and StarSpec, with only the RE-11 in sizes suitable for most 360/430.

 

Now see, that's the kind of advice I would trust! I haven't checked the alignment and probably should. I didn't mean to suggest that the 360 is really tail happy or anywhere near uncontrollably so. It's not and I did not spin my car, although I could feel an oversteering condition at the limit (Laguna Seca), though thinking back on this, perhaps that was just a result of lifting the throttle when I shouldn't have (I'm not a track hound). I am surprised to hear that 360s have the same geometries as 430s, however. I had always been told that 430s dialed out much of the terminal oversteer found in 360s. Since the geometries are the same, it must be alignment settings and other things, assuming it's even true that 430s handle better. It would be interesting to find out what if any differences there are in suspension. As for the NGT, etc. I would guess they're running more camber than we would on a street driven car, so can take better advantage of more tire/more square setup, or quite simply, and I know this to be true w/o needing to look this up, the drivers are much better than I am!

 

I had RA1's on my 360 as a dual purpose tire, and I really liked that solution. They wear much better than the 888's, don't heat cycle out, are relatively inexpensive, and available in OE compatible sizes. I'd be very surprised if they were not faster than the RE-11 but don't have any data to back that up. As with any true R compound tire you don't want to run them much under freezing, and they are not great in cold wet conditions.

Gary

 

I like the RA-1 so much. They were my favorite street/track/autoX tire for years. Unfortunately they stopped making them. I find the R888 more sticky than the RA-1 (I have used 3 sets in the Scuderia, and one more set in the 997 GT3 RS), but the grip falls off with heat cycles drastically, and they heat cycle too easily with street use. I'm not using R888 anymore, my last set went to the garbage bin yesterday.

I used to run Tuesdays at Riverside, CA on a small go-kart racetrack where they host Time Attacks. Small racetrack, but very useful to test car settings, suspension settings, tires, etc. On that track my R888 and my RE-11 were as fast as each other.

Last month at Sebring (my first 2 days at that track) I had the chance to run the RE-11 (245/35R19 and 285/35R19 on stock wheels) and the Hoosier A6 ( 295/30R19 and 345/30R19 on my track wheels) the same day. The lap time difference was 1.4 secs on a 3.7 miles long circuit. On day 1, my best lap on the A6 was a 2:22.9 and my best lap on RE-11 was a 2:24.3 (Traqmate). I dropped my times on day 2 as a consequence of learning techniques for this track from very experienced track instructors. I came down to 2:20s with a theoretical best lap (Traqmate ) on the low 2:19s, but I could have dropped the times with the RE-11 too.

I have also used the RE-11 at California Speedway. My best lap on Hoosier A6 compared to RE-11 is 3.5 secs faster on the Long Roval course. 1:46.9 on A6 and the same day 1:50.4 on the RE-11. I also used the R888 at the Roval course on a prior event and my best lap was a 1:50.6.

For 360 Alignment:

The factory recommended 3mm total toe-in at the rear axle (around 0.18 degrees toe in per rear corner). In the F430 they went up to 4mm total toe-in (0.25 degrees toe-in per rear corner). Use all the 360 factory settings except rear toe set at 0.25 degrees toe-in per corner, to increase rear end stability. If you use track tires, or street tires for track use, you will need more negative camber front and rear. On my tires, I run -3.5 front camber and -2.5 rear camber.

I have tested 13 different alignments in the Scuderia, I ran anywhere from 0 toe rear up to the current 0.25 toe-in per side rear. The rear is twitchy until I get to 0.22 degrees toe-in per corner. I was looking for less toe-in at the rear to help rotation, but it did not help much and made the car slower on corner exit. After much testing and hours of work changing the alignment (I do my own alignments), I settled with the stock rear toe-in setting from the factory. However, every other setting (caster, front/rear camber and front toe) are so off from the factory that they just promote a slow car, these cars are fast they just have horrible alignment settings from the factory that make them slow.

 

Thank you F430GT for this most valuable information and insight, I've been posting all over the place for the last couple of weeks and this is the most informative response I've received to date and I'm giving it extra credence given your evident track experience and experimentation with various tyres and sizes.

May I ask (in relation to the Modena) what pressures you run on those RE-11s on track? Do you set cold and then refine by seeking out certain pressures hot? I'd welcome your advice also for any amendments for a damp~to~wet track.

On my own 360 I've been encountering mainly understeer but I've been using the 215/45 so I reckon I'll definitely move on up to the 235/40. Heretofore I would have thought it would be advisable to also increase rear somewhat but having read what you've posted my feeling is to leave the rear alone and just change front at this point.

Can you explain what it is that one is expecting by increasing the rear toe-in? Are we trying to reduce oversteer or make it more progressive?

Same question in terms of increasing negative camber - particularly when suggesting somewhat similar level of adjustment at both front and rear.

Thanks (in anticipation) for sharing your knowledge an experience.


p.s. ...... sheeeeeit - my research is sugessting perhaps RE-11s replaced with S001 with max size 265/40 for the rear?

 

You guys sure know a lot about tires and I have read everything, but the only thing I really would like to know is:

Are there RE-11 out there that fit my stock rims for my 2005 F430 (TireRack doesn't list them) and if not can I put some other sizes on it and if yes which ones?

Thanks a lot.

 

What are your OEM sizes?

Strike that - 225/35 & 285/35

Recommended above - not OEM - but..... 245/35R19 and 285/35R19

 

So 245/35R19 would fit for the front and be the same or better driving experience? Not for the track but windy and curvy roads in the Bay Area. All I care is that they stick as good as street tires can do it. Any disadvantages if I go bigger?

Thank you so much for all your help.

 

Yes, that's the advice. No clearance issues. Improved turn-in response. Good rubber for your fine car. No disadvantages save only maybe a few $ more.

 

Will order them today from TireRack. Do you recommend special computer balancing from the installer or is this an overkill?

 

RA1's are back in production and have been for a year or so (because so many drivers just plain hated the 888's), check the Toyo site for size info.

- Gary

 

Gary, RA-1 went back to production on very few sizes. Spec Miata and some 17" and very few 18". Please, let me know where can I get 275/35R18 and 335/30R18 RA-1 I would stock pile them immediately.

For the F430, 16M and Scuderia, my recommended RE-11 are: Front: 245/35R19 and Rear: 285/35R19. All the info I have provided on these tires is related to these sizes.

I just got a new set of front RE-11, and from here on I will be using 255/35R19 and 285/35R19, but I cannot recommend these sizes until further testing. The 245/285 on 19" RE-11 is much better than anything that came stock in the Ferrari F430 and Scuderia/16M.

Be aware that RE-11 have a top speed of 168mph, if you plan to go faster than that get a different tire.

If you buy tires from TireRack, get them installed at any local shop, just check the mounting equipment, no metal parts should touch your wheels.

RE-11 street pressures: 34 psi front and 36 psi rear (cold pressures). For track use, lower their pressures to 28 psi and 30 psi rear, and target hot pressures at 34 psi front and 36 psi rear. After 38 psi they get greasy at the track, and below 26 psi they get floppy.

 

I just bought a set of new RA1s in those exact sizes...with the caveat they were manufactured four years ago, which for me in DE application is a non-issue. The price was definitely right, around $900 for the full set IIRC. I have been told those are among the sizes that are currently in production, but that is rumor at this point. If you are interested in four year old manufacture date for these sizes let me know, I think they are still available (I bought these for my track car - C6Z06 - and the supplier advertises on the Vette board).

Gary

 

Looking to add OEM 19" challenge wheels and not certain as to best/recommended sizes. I don't mind going +1 but don't want to upset the balance. Also, looking at tire rack I see the conti's are getting high ratings, even higher than the michelins and pirelli - I would not have expected that.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.