Tubi voids warranty???

Very interesting, i am curious to hear some opinions. I am not such expert to judge this.....

 

I just read the same thing and was going to post it also. something smells fishy!

 

I just bought a 99 360 with Tubi and have confirmed a 1 year power warranty with Ferrari. Not an issue. They know it has a Tubi. Of course, it is a certified dealer car as well with all services up to date.

 

I'm sure these pages would be full of shock horror stories if this was an issue, Capristo cost me a $20k engine rebuild, Tubi toasted my Testorrosa etc etc.
So anybody suffered engine damage caused by fitting an aftermarket exhaust???? Please tell all.
I understand it could be an easy get out clause for a shaky dealer.
If I was a manufacturer I would release a story like this if I had a factory aftermarket option to sell or a warranty recall I wanted to avoid.
A

 

Take it to court. 20 seconds? Maybe less. Ferrari would lose.

 

Maybe Ferrari tried to work out some deal with the exhaust manufacturers, for a piece of their revenue or a licensing fee, and were rebuffed, and so they went this route, like brats.

There's no other reason to trash aftermarket add-on manufacturers. Unless as someone stated, Ferrari has suffered a rash of warranty claims related to so called 'damages' from aftermarket exhaust, but also as someone has said - when the heck has that ever been publicly reported, here on Fchat or anywhere else??

Perhaps another possiblity is FNA is preparing to offer their own aftermarket exhaust and parts (like Dodge does for the Viper) and are setting the stage for sale of such performance parts.

 

If I'm not mistaken, I believe something similar has already been to court, and the auto manufacturers didn't win.

It seems like a few years ago this argument came up over after market air filters like K&N. I believe the decision was that unless the manufacturer was going to supply air filters to the owner for the lifetime of the vehicle, the owner had the right to install other brand filters, intakes, etc. without voiding the original warranty.

This argument may not hold water, however, as exhausts aren't something that have to be replaced regularly like an air or oil filter. It's worth a shot though.

 

Coming from Ferrari and having some prior knowledge of engine performance in relation to exhaust flow, I tend to believe what was stated in the newsletter. The bottom line is that bigger and higher flowing exhaust, in some cases, and especially on small displacement engines can have adverse effects on performance, such as engine torque loss. This is often why these "import" car hot rodders bolt on a sewer pipe sized exhaust and notice that their cars slow down a few tenths at the track. The other negative is that exhaust gasses scavenging effect is reduced across exhaust valve seat areas of the cylinder heads, thus increasing temperature on the valve seats and valve. This is exactly why some guys have ended up burning the top ends of their engines, thus Ferrari has decided to no longer honor warranties at this point. It also probably depends alot on how each F owner treats his/her car, but yes the damage is more likely to occur after you change your exhaust. Ferrari is spot on when they say it is all about careful "balance". Yes it is.

C

 

Ferrariblue,
Thanks for your input.
Can you confirm the number of Ferraris you know of taking engine damage because of aftermarket exhausts. I dont expect a number, but is it dozens, or one or two, or I've never heard of one.
I think the theory is just fine, but what are we talking in real terms.
kind regards,
Andy

 

I believe Ricambi is correct. It has to do with? Massey-Ferguson Act? Don't know if I got the law stated correctly though. SEMA has an advocacy group SAN that monitors and deals with such.

If the part did in fact cause a failure then the warranty claim can be denied. However if the belt tensioner or the clutch throwout bearing fails you can't deny the warranty because of the exhaust. Depends on what fails.

They would lose, like he said in about 20 seconds.......

Sounds like something else I had read somewhere.

On the other hand something else to consider is perhaps F's ECU is defective in some way and can't compensate the mixtures properly like they should......

 

Without disrespect - nothing is ever that simple. If "case law" does not already exist, "breech" (of anything) is always a crap shoot. Although "customary and usual" practice seems to be acceptance of minor changes, technically, Ferrari could rightly argue that any "unauthorized" modification voids the warranty. Best

 

LOL. They can but try.
They can try invalidating my warranty here in Europe. I'll sue them and quote "Block Exmption Rule 1400/2002". And laugh. I wish there was something like "class action" over here in the UK, I'd open up the law for every Ferrari owner past present and future and walk away with millions.

Regards NIk.

P.S. My friend in CA had a Tubi on his Enzo a few years ago when they were newish and needed a huge warranty claim put through. Before FNA tried any funny stuff he quoted "Magnusson-Moss" and apparently they shut up

 

I sent you pm. Best

 

900ssDuke - I do not have an answer in general on how many people have suffered engine damage due to an exhaust change / modification. I know I have read some posts (several) where people have complained of chronic CEL lights going off on their dash tell tale. This is a true sign that there is trouble. Could be from a vacuum leak from the old actuator system that the new exhaust set-ups typically don't use. That alone can cause a lean condition back up on the intake side which can also contribute to high exhaust temperature. Yes, you can also start seeing the "Slow Down" warning light too, which indicates high exhaust temps. You could do a search on "CEL" or "Slow Down" and see what sample of issues are related to exhaust changes.

C

 

The biggest concern Ferrari is having right now is that specifically Tubi's on 430's are causing check engine lights due to the missmatched flow characteristics between the Tubi and the variable valve timing in the 430. The factory exhaust and the bypass valves are tuned to work with the valve timing, particularly in the midrange low to Midrange rpm we use most. Tubi's create mid throttle misfires and mixture concerns (showing up as adaptive values out of range) Misssfires may not even be detectable but the show up as overheated exhausts and excessive 02 making it into the exhaust due to missfires and these emissions if left unchecked overheat the exhaust significantly.
The repeated visits to dealers has opened them up to Lemon Law concerns and reinstalling the original exhausts resolves the issue.
I know of multiple cars that had customers threatening lemon law over check engine lights (almost all in California), catalytic converter damage/manifold failures and several piston failures. Piston failures were also accompanied by aftermarket ECU software.
Pre-430,599,612 vehicles I don't feel there is a concern but there are some significant problems developing with aftermarket exhausts on the current models.

This is where the letter is based and why it was released.

PS there were several cases won by Ford regarding K&N filters. Ford does specifically state and it is now stamped on most of their air filter boxes "dry filter elements only". Most of the concerns come from oil migrating from the filter to the air meter and the lean reading form the airmeter causes leam running and spark knock which caused piston damage. This may also be a cause of the piston failures in the Ferrari's when combined with the aftermarket ECU software.

 

I beg to differ my friend. (I don't mean to come across combative at all so don't get me wrong! I talking at Ferrari here. After spending £150K on a car no-one is going to tell me what I can and can't fit to it.)

The 430 exhausts OE are not tuned at all. The 430 box is off a 360 stradale for a start. It wasn't honed to deliver specific flow characteristics for the 430. (if they argue it was, I'll laugh because flow between a 3.6 5v per cylinder engine is going to be very different to a 4.3 4v per cylinder engine) It was put on 430 because they didn't have to develop a new one i.e $$$$$$$

They time the opening and closing of the valve to make sure they are within European noise emissions regulations whilst getting noise out of the car. selecting different modes on the mannetino changes the threshold at which valves open but does not accordlingly change the tuning or timing of variable valve timing. So if they argue that they're lying.

I have a tubi on my 430 Spider and have never had a problem and I have never even heard of this problem from any owner. AFAIK tubi have a valved pipe too to copy the flow and sound delivery characteristics of stock. Would this cause a misfire too? I don't think so.

So does this mean if i disconnect the vacuum pipes on my OE pipe, I risk invalidating the warranty? Is my warranty invalid if I fit slick tyres to my car? Is my warranty invalid if I lower the ride height? What if I put low quality fuel in?

Having had experience with these manufacturers for many years, I don't believe them. They'll use any excuse they can to wriggle out of warranty payment and I absolutely refuse to be taken for a fool.

Either way, the law is on my side. So they can screw around with me at their peril.

 

Thanks ferrariblue, its good to get some opinion on this to consider.
Me, my Capristo just sounds too good. No warning lights to date. I'll get my dealer to look see if any codes have come up at the next service.
regards,
Andy

 

Best and most plausable explaination yet.

I've been taught not to play lawyer unless I know all the facts. Thanks for the enlightenment.

PS, My 04 360 Spider has the X-Ost, w/15k mi on the new muffler. No CEL no issues, and it sounds magnificent!

 

I have never heard of any manufacturer voiding an entire warranty unless the car has a branded title and even then very often the emissions portion is intact. Unfortunatly as usual most of this article has alot of incorrect information, even if you are a lawyer, the 430 muffler is significantly different than a 360 dyno results of even a stock exhaust 430 with the flaps disconnected results in a loss of performance, specifically torque in the low-mid range particularly at part throttle. By the way slicks and lowering of a vehicle will cause claims for worn or failed items related to brakes, suspension and wheel bearings to be denied. Many of the dealers choose to look the other way and take care of their clients, us included. If FNA continues to require return of the old parts and in some cases are now requiring pictures of the car and the VIN number in order to validate claims dealers are forced to not cover the items as they are not going to pay for these items out of there pocket. A car that goes to lemon law with aftermarket components installed by a dealer it will be the responsibility of the dealer to purchase the car back not FNA.
Its nice to see many of you are not having any issues. Much of the concerns occure at very specific RPM/load ranges. If your driving habits/conditions are not in that window then you likely will not have concerns. There are cars out there with 5-10 visits for a check engine light on, after a TUBI installation, in an attempt to resolve the concern dealers reinstalled the factory exhaust and the concerns do not return. Several of these cars have spent a great deal of time on the dyno with data recorders and wide band lambda's on them to reproduce the concern and it has been traced to the flow characteristics of the TUBI. Recently TUBI has made changes to the 430 muffler to elliminate this problem. This is not a TUBI product failure but a combination of the TUBI with the North American Motronic software level, particular in earlier 430 and the earlier TUBI.
Those of you in markets other than NA I cannot speak to the specific software in your vehicles and I cannot speak to mufflers other than the TUBI but other markets do have some significant differences over the NA versions.

 

Just took delivery of 2007 430 and the dealer gladly installed the Tubi before I picked it up. Had a Tubi on my previous 430,360, and 355, not a hint of an issue with the car(s) nor any protest from the dealer or service department.

 

Can you provide documentation for this or is it just another internet URBAN LEGEND that you are propogating? I searched and could not find a singe case, let alone SEVERAL.


K&N has research and documentation to back their position -

http://www.knfilters.com/MAF/massair.htm
http://www.knfilters.com/news/news.aspx?ID=422

 

I just can't see how there would be a significant change in exhaust flow dynamics if the stock cats are left in place with a stock versus aftermarket canister. Most of the time we are driving in a spirited fashion, and the valves are open during hard acceleration/high rpms when cylinder temps are highest and exhaust flow is maximum. With the valves open the canister is bypassed anyway.So there shouldn't be a big difference at all, right? I can see how headers and/or high-flow cats, or straight pipes might change the dynamics however. I'm not an engineer, just thinking out loud....

 

Has anyone seen this on a 550?
I'm looking at buying a 2000 550 with a Tubi and the engine code P1445 has been troubling the current owner.
He has been driving around with it for 1-2 yeasr that way.

 

While at the Concorso Italiano in Monterey, Ca I spoke to the Tubi rep. He did confirm that FN will void the warranty and there have been cases of warning lights(and other problems?). I believe he stated that some dealers allowed Tubi's to be placed on 430's but when a problem arose they placed it under a "warranty" clause and billed FN. Ferrari found out about this and made a policy of not allowing Tubi's on 430's. He said that a few deceitful dealers cost Tubi a lot of business. I just had my first year service on an 07 430 and the service tech replaced the exhaust valve hoses which I had taken off. They stated that the exhaust valves need to be plugged in for the exhaust system to operate properly. FN warranty would be void if a problem arose.