Hey 308 owners, We are very close at Girodisc to getting our 308 brake systems on the road. We have 3 levels of brake system in consideration. We are going to offer the intermediate or level 2 system first. The level 2 system will upgrade the braking ability and fade resistance to better match modern tires abilities and aggressive driving. The real key is that the level 2 is designed to do this and also fit inside the 15 factory wheel. The system is designed to work with all the factory hydraulic system and plumbing, and importantly, to keep the brake force balance and hydraulic volumes within only a couple percent change from the OE system. Level 2 includes: Front four piston AP Racing calipers and mount brackets. 310 mm front two-piece floating type rotor, saving several pounds 279 mm two-piece floating type rear rotor, also saving pounds Matched front and rear brake pads Stainless brake lines with DOT approval. The front will receive AP racing 4 piston calipers mounted with an adapter bracket. The rear caliper will remain the OE component in order to retain the parking brake. We have investigated just about every means of mounting a secondary parking brake caliper along with a two or four piston main caliper, and it becomes very complicated and the costs and modification level begin to pass the point that we feel is acceptable for this car. In order to keep the brake force balance correct between the front and rear systems, we are including upgraded friction level pads for the rear caliper to better match the front. The rotors will be curved vane vented, slotted iron ring and aluminum hat two-piece type. The rotors will use drive pins and have some float to compensate for potentially high thermal expansions. The rotors will save several pounds over the overly heavy OE parts, the amount of which I will know exactly in a couple weeks. Cost of level two? I am projecting $3500 complete, and maybe less. The level one will be a two-piece disc direct replacement only in the OE size. Level three will be a racing system using much larger front and rear components, and will eliminate the parking brake. Stay tuned for the details and availability details of these. We are currently having the prototype components for the level 2 system machined. We are looking for someone in the Southern Cal and more specifically, the OC area with a 308 of any year, who would like to have the first prototype set applied to their vehicle. If the system is validated for fit and function, we will then be able to offer the system to the car owner for a small parts cost only. We ask only to be able to further measure the system for break-in and wear rates on occasion, as well as get feedback from the owner on performance. The goal is to be able to offer real braking improvements and solutions to Ferrari 308 owners at real world prices. So we are looking to develop the system with as much involvement with the ferrarichat group as possible. I am including a couple screenshots from the CAD program of the front and rear rotor assemblies and a small shot of the front caliper. Shots of the actual kit will follow very soon. -Eric
Right, sorry about that, I meant 14"s there was also a metric rim, a 390 I think, and then the 16"s on the QV I believe. Anyway, the kit should fit the wheels. Eric
Brembo big-brake kits for 308's are 313mm, these fronts are 310mm, so we're talking comparable size. The Brembo kits require 16" wheels -- and any 308 owner who doesn't already have 16" or larger wheels on their car isn't "serious" about track performance or aggressive driving anyway.
So how about a L2 kit that utilizes 330mm front rotors in combination with the 279mm rear rotors for those of us who already have 17" (or larger) rims?
Hi guys, This is why we have 3 levels coming, because one system will not satisfy everybody! The L2 will be more than good enough for hard drives and track days, whatever the wheel size. For those who are really "serious" the track kit without e-brake will be the right choice. Rick, a 330 front only would throw off the vehicle balance beyond what we deem acceptable. The race system will be 330 or more in size all around. If you want that much disc, this will be your system. We are developing the system from a function and performance aspect first, asthetics of filling the wheels are secondary. -Eric
Now, if I can figure out how to justify a brake upgrade that's 10% or more of the value of the car itself...?
Brake force balance is very important...excellent point, Eric! (Which is what you refer to in your original post.) Thanks...
Why AP over brembo/MOVit/Stop/etc. Are they Al with Ti rods? Is it possible to get billet Al with Ti rods? (at added cost of course). I would be willing to pay for the added cost of both, and if an appl. was designed for my 'werid ABS hub' 328.
Hello omar, I chose the particular AP calipers as they are the right part at the right cost to make this kit viable for as many folks as possible. The AP calipers are aluminum castings with stainless pistons. They are race proven parts. Movit uses Porsche(brembo) calipers and makes their own 308 kit. Stoptech makes their own kits and would rather keep it that way. Brembo already has a front kit, and the brembo catalog does not include a caliper that is better than the one used by them at a better price. (why duplicate?) Alcon has a couple calipers that would work here, but the cost is much higher. I cant imagine a 308 needing titanium pistons unless it is a dedicated race car. If you are boiling your fluid on the street, I doubt you still have a license!I could design a system around aluminum-berylium F1 calipers and titanium what-nots with carbon rotors and have it cost more than the car, but there is little point to that. With that said, tell me what you want. We might move on to a 328 kit next, I have the specs and can build anything. But I will not build a system that is not balanced and safe for the car. -Eric
It may be old, but i'll take the twisties and NOT be so slow. A big factor is the handling package (in some cases) so start the mods
According to the rights provided by the Constitution of the United States i plead the Fifth Amendment [;-)
VelocityEngineer Eric, Can you explain to me in English why we need big brakes anyway with a car that has factory ABS that will retain the factory ABS? The reason I ask the question is this. I don't know how ABS works. Lets assume I threshold brake on the track the ABS system prevents lock. Let's assume threshold braking is the limit of braking grip for that tire. That means at best I get -1G with street tires and maybe 1.2G with racing slicks and no aerodynamics. The ABS reads some computer preset generic tire's 0.8G or 1g or whatever setting and prevents lock in a generic way via the wheel speed sensor that may be below the tire grip threshold. Alternatively, the ABS may work by the wheel sensor showing a lock when the ABS knows the car is still moving thus preventing lock. With a way to know the wheel speed vs vehicle speed you can have the ABS monitor wheel lock at full tire grip based on conditions and tire compound. So If I can threshold brake and the ABS comes on with my little brakes then the ABS will come on some miliisecond faster with the big brakes. You see it does not matter how big a flyswatter I use as long as each swatter is bigger than the fly. In fact if you had infinately larger brakes you could perhaps lock your brakes on the first tap (without ABS) and make a car's brake system very user unfriendly? So why or when are bigger brakes better?
I boiled some going downhill in the mountains.....my fault.....but there was a gravel run off for the trucks......my 308 just floated along in the gravel 'till they cooled down.........just before the 6,000 ft cliff......
When you say balanced, which tire combo are they balanced for? A 205 front and 225 rear? A 225 front and 255 rear? As you known any combo of tires will have a a different ratio of tire and thus brake balance front and rear. (I think the stock 205/225 matches to a 225/245 front/rear setup if I remember right).
Fatbillybob, A fair question. The point is to have a flyswatter that can last through hundreds of swats. ABS is not really the issue here. Wheel locking and deceleration rates are not at hand. For ABS equipped cars, the ABS programming and tires will dictate the maximum deceleration rate. Brake fade is the point of a "big brake system". Thermal capacities and heat rejection. Surface area and airflow management in the rotor. For example: Drive a car hard down a twisty canyon, braking hard through potentially hundreds of tight turns. The brakes will get little time between high pressure applications and only short bursts of cooling time. The temperature of the rotors will rise and fall, and the average rotor temp will rise significantly. Iron rotors will heat until they glow without issue, they do not loose any significant friction coeficient. The pads will have a definite working temp, and once they overheat, th friction drops like a rock, hence hard-pedal brake fade. if the pads are very high performance units, they may take the heat, but the caliper design may be such that too much temperature transfers to the pistons and then the fluid may boil, then you have soft-pedal fade and real big problems. A bigger rotor-caliper kit gives more surface area to absorb and reject heat. A proper vent design for the rotor maximizes the airflow for max cooling rate. An aluminum caliper will radiate the heat better than iron, multiple pistons spreads the heat load amongst more fluid and surface area, further delaying fade. The right components can make a brake system last as long as a 24 hour endurance race. Its not about how hard the car can brake. Its about how many times the car can brake hard. A discussion about ABS and brake force may be better suited for another time. Auraraptor, you misunderstand balance. It has nothing to do with tires. It is based on the amount of weight the car places on each corner, and the corresponding amount of weight that is transferred under braking, acceleration, and cornering. This balance is fixed and known and is a function of the weight and the center of gravity position and height. Underastand that as a car brakes, weight is transferred from the rear axle to the front axle. this weight is different from the weights at rest. A brake system must be designed to compensate and work with this balance. The factory system is designed for correct balance front to rear in terms of corresponding force. Varying from this factory balance too far makes the car unstable and even potentially dangerous under braking, not to mention a degredation in performance. Keep the good questions coming, whew, you guys are making me work! -E
Fatbillybob, I too have no experience with ABS, except my wife's ford Exploder, which really doesn't count. ABS or no ABS, do you ever experience pad fade, (hard pedal but less than optimum stopping distances), or fluid fade, (mushy pedal) when blasting around the course??? Bigger, or more effective heat dissipating discs are a step in the right direction. Calipers with more piston area might be of little benefit with abs if you can lock em up any time. I have put bigger brakes on two P-cars and experienced both a much greater resistance to fading AND a noticeable increase in controlability - for me - a much more easily modulated pedal under hard braking, both with street tires and racing rubber. chris
Velocity engineer and Chris Morse, I am not a very good driver but I exclusively track my car and have begun wheel to wheel racing this year. I still use ABS because it is there but very easy to disable on the 348. When the ABS is on or off I notice no difference in braking ability and I threshold brake with ABS routinely on pirelli slicks. I have zero fade on stock pads! How I maintain my system is to bleed before every race day, use synthetic dot3 fluid of a generic type. My rotors and pads are always flat and in good condition. I run 3" brake ducts with direct feed from custom scoops in the foglights. I am intrigued by bigger brakes but no one has convinced me yet that they make sence since I can threshold brake the stock rotors. It appears that almost locking the tire is the maximum a tire can grip so if a smaller rotor does it then you have the best set-up as Ferrari designed. I have never faded my brakes in the street. Street fading even in canyon roads is mostly due to improper brake use and poor maintanence. OEM's do a great job of over-engineering brakes for the poorest of drivers. I am racing and see no problem. If big brakes can make me stop faster then they are good. Brake fade on a 348 or any car including the 308 I once owned is a non-issue on the street. In fact if people are changing to big brakes for the street with only percieved fade as an issue they are wasting money. Cooling ducts are 50 bucks! They are decreasing performance moving weight to a larger diameter increasing inertial unsprung weight albeit less weight. The big rotors do look cool with slots to fill out the inside of bigger wheels. Is it worth the big bucks and the possible upset in brake balance engineered by Ferrari on pre-abs cars? ABS cars you can get away with this because the ABS pump is a giant computer proportioning valve. But whats happens when you get an ABS light you could have a dangerous undriveable car. So the bottom line is the discussion on ABS vs non-ABS and bigger brakes as I posted before is significant. Are we getting shorter stopping distances? Does the bigger brake get us more tire grip than the stock set-up? If it gets us faster grip is that in milliseconds and what does that mean in terms of feet of stopping distance?
