PAP348#s Wheel Spacers & Bolts… | FerrariChat
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PAP348#s Wheel Spacers & Bolts…

Discussion in '348/355' started by 348paul, Aug 9, 2007.

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  1. 348paul

    348paul Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2002
    1,098
    Kent - UK
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    Paul Hill
    #1 348paul, Aug 9, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I have started this new thread on this subject as the last thread (in places!) became completely out of hand. For reference here is the link:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=159667

    To cut a very long story short Pap had a LHR wheel come loose on his 348. The car had Hill WS025 spacers fitted to both rear wheels at the time of the incident.

    We have now inspected all returned parts from Pap and can state that all the wheel spacers & inserts conform to all drawing specification including any thread tolerances, hardness specification and finishes. All materials used have been batch traced back to their original documentation and checked for hardness & chemical compositions.

    The wheel bolts that were originally fitted to Pap’s car now come into question.

    The first problem we have is that we are relying on the customer to use their original wheel bolts in the WS025 Type 2 spacers. The fixing of the wheel is therefore only as good as the original bolts that are used to mount the wheel onto the spacer. The original Ferrari wheel bolts were returned to us as well and were marked up from which side they came from.
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  2. 348paul

    348paul Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2002
    1,098
    Kent - UK
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    Paul Hill
    #2 348paul, Aug 9, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Seeing that we had the bolts segregated into two sides it was very easy to see that the LHR bolts had very visible damage to the fronts of the threads. One would say that due to the bolts loosening and coming out would cause this kind of damage and I would totally agree. The biggest problem we have is to know the condition of the bolts before the incident but unfortunately this would be very difficult.
    We do have the RHS bolts fortunately, and this is where it starts to get very interesting. Three out of the five bolts on the RHS are showing various degrees of flank deformation and missing threads.
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  3. 348paul

    348paul Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2002
    1,098
    Kent - UK
    Full Name:
    Paul Hill
    #3 348paul, Aug 9, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  4. 348paul

    348paul Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2002
    1,098
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    Paul Hill
    #4 348paul, Aug 9, 2007
    From an engineers view these pictures speak a thousand words, in layman’s terms these thread are showing severe damage to one of the most critical parts of a thread – the flank. Without the flank of the thread maintaining its angle (in this case 60 degrees inclusive) the threaded joint becomes much weaker and the ability to keep the tension within the bolted joint is severely diminished. (See crosshairs on “Deformation” Picture)

    Basically - The original bolts were damaged at some point in the past.


    When inspecting the LHS bolts further up the threads (past the damage) there is again visible flank deformation up to the point of full engagement. Past full engagement and the thread form returns to its normal state. I believe that we can very confidently say that the incident was caused by the threads on the original Ferrari bolts of being in a condition unfit for being used in the application intended.
     
  5. 348paul

    348paul Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2002
    1,098
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    Paul Hill
    #5 348paul, Aug 9, 2007
    Pap.

    PLEASE - check your front wheel bolts - I take it they are the old Ferrari ones?

    Paul
     
  6. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

    May 21, 2005
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    #6 No Doubt, Aug 9, 2007
    Any recommendations on how to test/view/inspect our lug bolts?

    Any suggestions on how often they should be replaced (treated as wear items, perhaps)?
     
  7. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

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    #7 No Doubt, Aug 9, 2007

    Can you test the damaged bolts to determine how much locking/gripping power they still hold?

    Can you state that the damaged bolts were not loosened by foul play?
     
  8. Miltonian

    Miltonian F1 Veteran

    Dec 11, 2002
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    Jeff B.
    #8 Miltonian, Aug 9, 2007
    What about deformation of the threads in the hub? Is it really safe to say that the spacers are now attached to the hub at 100% efficiency, if the NEW spacer bolts are attached to the same threads that had earlier been used with these obviously damaged OLD wheel bolts?

    Great feedback on the situation, Paul. Thank you for sharing this information with all of us.
     
  9. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
    Sponsor Owner

    Dec 7, 2003
    16,453
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    #9 Ricambi America, Aug 9, 2007
    Good question. I spoke to Paul about it early this morning, and asked about the condition of the inserts inside the old spacers. According to Paul, the inserts were in perfect shape -- suggesting the bolt damage occurred before the spacers were even installed. I wonder if Pap has a good enough digital camera and sensitive enough fingers to check the condition of the hub, without having to send it to London for Paul's cool shadow camera. Your thoughts Paul?
     
  10. Kaivball

    Kaivball Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jan 11, 2007
    35,997
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    #10 Kaivball, Aug 9, 2007
    for what it's worth. I received Ricambi's/Hill 25mm spacers last week and have put 200 miles on the car since without problems.

    And, yes, it makes for a fat butt look... :) (I kept the front stock)

    the handling has definitely improved and I too was impressed with the overall quality and craftsmanship of the spacer and the bolts.
     
  11. eulk328

    eulk328 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2005
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    #11 eulk328, Aug 9, 2007
    Could someone have chased the bolt threads with a crap die at one point? Of course that would mean there was previous damage otherwise why use a die on it..... Has over-tightening been ruled-out?

     
  12. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    100,220
    Mount Isa, Australia
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    Pap
    #12 PAP 348, Aug 9, 2007


    Hello mate. Very very interesting information posted here mate. :) Those pics are awesome!! Thankyou very much for taking the time to do this. I had a feeling that the bolts were at fault, because the quality of your spacers looked second to none. :):)

    I removed the front and rear wheel bolts before I went driving the other day. I removed 1 bolt at a time (car was on the ground) and inspected thread on wheel bolt, the seat of the bolt head and the wheel insert. All threads/bolts looked ok to me mate on both front and rear wheels. Wheel inserts were not cracked or damaged in any way. :)

    Everything torqued back up again when I went driving the other day. I must have done nearly 100km this week and have checked wheel bolt torque 6 times. Before, during and end of drive. They are still tight. No issues as of yet. I will continue to check the torque on them mate, just to make sure. Although, personally I think there will be no issues. But better safe than sorry. :)
     
  13. gothspeed

    gothspeed F1 World Champ

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    #13 gothspeed, Aug 9, 2007
    Good point..... Pap are you still tightening your lug bolts to 90 ft lbs????? ;) :p :p
     
  14. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
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    Pap
    #14 PAP 348, Aug 9, 2007


    Nope. All wheel bolts and rear wheel spacer to hub bolts have been torqued to factory spec 74 ft/lbs. :):)
     
  15. procure95

    procure95 Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2006
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    Giovanni (John)
    #15 procure95, Aug 9, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I bet the bolt on the second picture was tightened last or close to last. I bet Pap tighten the 1st bolt to the required torque and proceed in a star fashion. When he got to the last bolt it wasn’t matched up to the thread and you get them dips on the side which don’t make perfect contact instead you have the point of the thread digging into the other thread. Notice the dips on the flanks corresponded to the tips of the thread below. Just wondering what is the brinell hardness of both materials
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  16. procure95

    procure95 Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2006
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    Giovanni (John)
    #16 procure95, Aug 9, 2007
    it looks like jaw's week..........:D
     
  17. Armenhaz

    Armenhaz Karting

    Nov 8, 2005
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    Armen
    #17 Armenhaz, Aug 9, 2007
    Hey Pap, when you tightened the spacers to the hup, what torque did you tighten those at?
     
  18. VTChris

    VTChris F1 World Champ

    Aug 21, 2005
    13,259
    #18 VTChris, Aug 9, 2007
    Armen,

    I have a set of spacers (Rear 25mm) that I no longer need.

    the new 10 1/2" wheels with 295's filled the gap nicely :D
     
  19. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    100,220
    Mount Isa, Australia
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    Pap
    #19 PAP 348, Aug 9, 2007
    Hello Armen :) I torqued all 10 rear wheel spacer to hub bolts to factory spec 74 ft/lbs ;)
     
  20. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    100,220
    Mount Isa, Australia
    Full Name:
    Pap
    #20 PAP 348, Aug 9, 2007
    :D
    I bet they do too :eek::eek:
     
  21. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    100,220
    Mount Isa, Australia
    Full Name:
    Pap
    #21 PAP 348, Aug 9, 2007
    No need, I reckon Paul could check my spacer bolts I sent back and use the shadow camera to see the condition of my hub thread :)

    What do you think Paul?
     
  22. Armenhaz

    Armenhaz Karting

    Nov 8, 2005
    232
    Glendale, CA
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    Armen
    #22 Armenhaz, Aug 10, 2007
    Thanks Chris. I have those spacers on my car too, they have about 300 miles on them without issues. But love to see a pic of your wheels. Thanks for the info PAP!
     
  23. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    100,220
    Mount Isa, Australia
    Full Name:
    Pap
    #23 PAP 348, Aug 10, 2007

    Yeah!! Cough up a pic Chris!! :D:D
     
  24. eulk328

    eulk328 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2005
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    #24 eulk328, Aug 11, 2007
    Paul?

     
  25. 348paul

    348paul Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2002
    1,098
    Kent - UK
    Full Name:
    Paul Hill
    #25 348paul, Aug 11, 2007
    It is very difficult to tell at the area that is damaged but the effective diameters all measure within tolerance at the rear of the thread where there is no engagement or damage. Over tightening can not be ruled out - I personally do not believe for one second that 90lb ft would have caused this type of damage.

    All 10 checked and correct (This cannot be taken that the holes they screw into are not damaged)

    I did PM Pap a few weeks ago expressing the exact same concern.

    A visual inspection with something like a 10x eye glass will be the best starting point - after cleaning the thread you are basically looking for a form like what is posted in the picture where it says "Hill Engineering Bolt" If it looks anything like any of the other pictures - throw them away.

    There are so many factors when dealing with wheel bolts - I have seen some frightening things where people have had bolts made for their car from soft mild steel with cut threads (opposed to rolled threads). Wrong seating angles machined on the head. Heads broken off due to Hydrogen embrittlement (where people have had their bolts re-chromed and not asked for them to be de-embrittled.)

    If in doubt - throw them out.
     
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