355GT

I'm in the process of fitting a fuel cell into my 355Challenge and putting her on a serious weight loss program.

While digging around, I came across this cool page http://f355.homestead.com/355gt.html that I think belongs to an FChatter.

Does anyone have any additional information the privately built 355GT cars? Pictures, specs?

Any ideas on engine mods, aerodynamics, lightening? Martin did you have one for sale?

Thanks for any insight.

Mark

 

The headlight conversion looks really nice. I think I will do that.

 

Are you doing a custom cell or exisiting model retrofitted?

 

That link is off my old website. There is little information on the 355GT's and no real specifications since none were built at Ferrari and none recieved any factory support. All the 355GT's (which is really a generic term) were rebuilt Challenge cars by various privateers.

The most successful was a group of Russian racers who campaigned the car in the old FIA GT series and ran at Daytona a few years. They were most prevelant in the Italian GT series and the old BPR series where they raced in GT3 class.

You might want to try and contact Jeff Ipoletti, whom I believe runs in the Florida region of FCA now (check with Martin). He built a similar car which I believe was mostly fiberglass. His engine was heavilly modified to about 480 hp.

As best I can remember from seeing them at Daytona (there two of them one year) is that the cars had vastly different rear diffusers and front splitters than the Challenge cars. They ran much wide wheels and had center lock BBS or Speedline wheels. One of the two cars, Kuhmo sponsored ran on JRZ remote resovoir shocks and I seem to recall the crew chief telling me the motor had different cams.

The ones that ran at Daytona usually finished but were at least 3-4 seconds off the pace of the other cars.

Hope this helps.

 

Moorespeed had Fuel Safe make a cell with my 355 Fuel pump to fit in the front trunk. Looks to be super sanitary.

I can get build specs if you like. I will feel much safer with a proper fuel cell.

Mark

 

Thanks Jon, your information has given me a good start.
Hopefully I can contact Jeff or Martin, and get more details.
I'd really like to see some pics from one of the exhaust systems that exits through the bumper.
I'll try to PM Martin.
Mark

 

I found this car that evidently won the Italian GT in 2003.

http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/ferrari/1097662263/1097662263ss.htm

Weight 2650#s, interesting front splitter and exhaust exit through the bumper.

 

Maybe... The oem location is the safest. problem with front tank is changing weight balance as you race, fuel lines running either in the cockpit or under the car for most of the car's length, no safety cage for the tank unless you had the cage extended into the front bonnet. If you did then the tank is safer but the oem crush zone is lost which is there to dissipate energy in a crash. The metal tank of a fuelcell is designed to protect the bladder of the cell but the metal tank should be protected as well with steel tubes etc... Have a look at what the guys do with 911's to reinforce the front tank area when a cell is used.

 

Mark:
just PMd you back and now found this one. So here it goes again:

Jeff Ipolitti is apparently who you were asking me for. You can contact him through www.celebrationexoticcars.com which is the non-profit concourse he has organized for the past 3 years with great success. Jeff has an all tricked out 355 that started life as a street 355, not even a Challenge car. He has just recently modified the car even more with engine upgrades to the tune of $30K +. His 355 is probably the baddest 355 out there, period!

Good advise from Fatbillybob (as usual). the front truck always appears as the "best" location for a new fuel cell local but it is the crumple zone. It is built to easily smash together if you ever drive head-on into a wall. I also agree that is will potentially offset the balance of the car. Although I am sure that David from Moorespeed can hook you up with the best possible setup to counter balance that.

The GT from Italy shown on Race-Car.com is actually my listing. As I PM'd you, I wish I had pulled the trigger myself then. Sometimes it is just not the right time.

My assessment:
I would leave the car as it is. At best do some easy mods like lighteing the car more. I believe we have access to carbon doors, fenders, hoods etc. to sheed some weight. I have also commissioned a plastic windshield for the 355 (I have mine already at the shop but not yet in the car.). You know the easy mods.

The other possibility is to simply start from scratch and build a car from ground up to your specs. Starting with a Chassis from Ferrari and going from there. We may start a project like that this winter with a 360.

 

Jeff's email:

[email protected]

 

Rob,

I did do just one NASA race last year, at MSR Houston. I'm planning to do more w/NASA in 2007, it would be hard to do fewer. I'm also going to try and travel with Moorespeed to some more vintage races outside Texas.

The plan is to have the car finished and tested before NASA at MSR Houston Feb3&4. It would be great to several cars out together, I'll see about doing NASA in March and April. Are you not doing the Feb date?

I'm trying not to fall too deeply into the bottomless pit of cubic dollars with what started out as a simple safety upgrade, but Jeff's 355GT is just too cool for words, it is haunting me.......

Mark

 

Babies definitely equate to fewer race wknds. Congratulations!

By the time I'm done, I will definitely be beyond a used 360C. But, for me, shifting with a clutch and shifter is half the fun. A 360C would still need a lot of this work anyway, I really like 355's and I have no desire for anything w/F1 transmission, and I really like the vintage option.

I just can't commit the time to pursue any kind of season points tally, so an "outlaw" 355GT that I can run NASA in Texas or travel with and run Vintage at great tracks makes perfect sense.

Dana's cubic dollars would have been a bit of a jump start, but this way I can get boiled with the temperature rising gradually!

Have you seen Jeff Ipolitti's 355GT? It is unbelievable!

Hope to see you at one of the NASA dates.

Mark

 

Some of those tires look pretty wide

 

355's are pretty new. How can you run vintage???

 

You guys are wrong about the fuel cell location. It works and enhances the crumple zone, not the opposite. The front structure of a 355 is far stronger than a 911 and I have wrecked too many by stuffing them in the front over the last 20 years of racing professionally to say its a compromise. Far from it and much safer in my professional opinion. As far as setup during the course of an enduro with full to light fuel load...done that many times....it's not an issue with this car and the setup we run. Case in point 2800 lb 355 with fuel cell up front: 1:22 Sebring, 1:37 Road Atlanta me personally "light fuel load" fuel cell up front......oh Randy Pobst 1:22 same car at Sebring, same day, same race...co-driver. Year before with stock location and stock challenge throughout: 1:24 at Sebring 1:40 ATL. The benefits of having the balance up front far out weigh the original location. The car was not designed originally for all of the challenge deletes that came up front. With them all the original balance is compromise....ask Ferrari themselves if you know whom to ask. A challenge car on the lift can virtually be lifted up with one finger at the front pivoting the back. If that's a good thing, I'll just quit being a race engineer.

BTW, there were not cubic dollars spent on the car you reference. I don't know where that BS rumor came from. I don't know what your definition of cubic dollars is but when a pro roll cage costs about the same as two set of tires????? Does than make it cubic? Or does installing a "real" fuel cell compromise safety??? The one you speak of hired our company to make her car safer and more competitive by removing flamable interior panels, misc. trim, installing a proper racing cage and installing a proper fuel cell as well as to maintain and transport it for racing at the national level. A stock Ferrari Challenge is NOT equipped to run at that level if you look at the car objectively and professionally. Just isn't. Not to mention the fact that the car is "legal" to run in SVRA and HSR which a 360 is not to date. The 355 is the most affordable "vintage" Ferrari race car to date. And any Ferrari at the track is a welcome site in my book as far too many sit in museums dry rotting away these days. As far as competition and speed. I did a 1:58 today at Daytona in a 28 year old race car on my second hot lap and that I hope to be competitive. These cars that run are all old IMSA race cars. Hell there is 35 cars in the GTP field, there were not that many running back in the day. I may get a chance to drive a GTP later this weekend of which should dip into the 1:40's. So, you guys down in Florida this week???....come to Daytona tomorrow and this weekend and I'll show you what properly prepared racecars can do around a track. Be glad to have you here and show you a good time and show you the pros and cons of what we are discuss

I realize there are a lot of "grass root" guys that lurk around as well as race and work on their own stuff and have a different mind set on what is "cubic" and what is "reasonable". Its frankly relative to the individudual as well as the car and race series and we aint' talking about VWs on this site, I THINK we are talking about Ferrari...the best right??? But thats what I do and why I'm a consultant. As always, I'm more than happy to help as I'm a racer too, just make a living doing it....in front of the pack.

d

 

"You guys are wrong about the fuel cell location. It works and enhances the crumple zone, not the opposite."

D,

Can you explain how you can enhance the crumple zone? You can reinforce it and prevent it from crushing with more tubes but I do not know how you can enahnce it with ot without a cell. And you don't have any way of testing the enhancement unless you are crashing cars and recording data right?

"The benefits of having the balance up front far out weigh the original location. The car was not designed originally for all of the challenge deletes that came up front. With them all the original balance is compromise....ask Ferrari themselves if you know whom to ask."

Sure this makes sence. The balance goes all to hell 60/40 rear weight bias but you have to trade off overall balance with polar moment etc.., Just 50/50 is not enough. A center mass car 50/50 balance works better than a dumbell balanced car 50/50 balanced. Then there is the 911 that works amazingly but should not work at all with stupid rear weight balance. I get beatup by them all day long. I know I need some driving lessons but geez some of my problem is the 911 has like 40-50 years of tweeking to make them work.

The 355 is the most affordable "vintage" Ferrari race car to date. I realize there are a lot of "grass root" guys that lurk around as well as race and work on their own stuff and have a different mind set on what is "cubic" and what is "reasonable".

Yup grass roots and most of us do not have professional to properly install fuel cells. 90% of the time a cell gets dropped in with no regard for where fuel lines are routed or how a cell is supported or how those positions react in a crash. You may or may not have thought about it. As far as safety the oem location and short fuel lines is the best place for the tank. No only is it not likely to get hit but the lines are less likely to get hit. and you don't have as much plumbing for your fire system. If you are not using a dry break through the front hood then you could have a safer tank in rollover since the cell would not have a filler neck. But regardless of how you tube around the front cell it is in the impact zone. Just being in the front increases the odds of the cell getting it hit. Anyway that is just my home mechanic opinion. Lets see some pictures of how a professional does the front fuel tank. I have never seen one. It should be very educational. What does your rollcage look like? How did you plumb your fire sytem?

 

This is not something that we just threw in without thought particularly of impact and safety....its why we installed it in the first place. For as many stock aluminum 355 tanks I've seen punctured from the motor moving forward under impact or some other reason it does not seem to be all that sweet of a place. The engine is quite a bit of momentum. Put a bowling ball in the back of your car and slam on the brakes....be prepared to buy a new windshield as long as does not rip your head off.

The stock location is not protected like in an F1 or Champ car. In fact this particular stock tank had been repaired twice before for being pierced.

As far as crumple zone, the cell absorbs too, that is how it is designed. As far as the lines running fore and aft, there are only two lines with check valves utilized and the braided teflon hose is run through the tunnel not the cockpit and are protected. The fuel cell also has quite a bit of room around it and is bolted with straps to the floor supports of the front trunk. It's really not as bad as you think. I understand your points, but I've seen plenty of race cars stuffed with cells in front and the cell crumpled too that helped absorb the energy. The only ones that did not were carbon fiber contained bladders that broke apart and cut the bladder. The bladder is made of special kevlar not a cheap plastic or poly material.

When we sell this type of system to a "grass roots" guy, it comes with a complete set of installation instructions. Probably sold 30-40 fuel cells as a Fuel Cell dealer over the years.

 

Nice! I hear you and have thought of doing a cell in front myself mostly due to cost of a custom tank in the stock location.

1- do you have pictures?

2- how many gallons is the tank?

3- do you sell it with the extra surge baffle system or just a stock tank with duck foot pickup O.K.

4- what did you use for a fuel pump? 1 pump or 2 like oem? How many gallons per hour is your pump?

5- Did you plumb your fire system above the cell? Did you use 3 nozzles on a 5 liter/10lb system?

6- Is it a good idea to allow the cell to be part of the crumple zone as you described in your post or is it better to say weld a bar (or an x--bar) ahead of the cell but hopefully no further forward of the front axle centerline? That would perhaps protect the cell from crushing and keep your crmple zone up to the axle centerline plus help stiffen the chassis around the pick-up point areas. this assumes of course that the cell is reasonably small which yours may not be if you are doing enduros and such.

Sorry for all the questions I am trying to learn. Thanks!

 

I am planning both dates with the 355 and have equipped accordingly. But watch out because I believe NASA are doing seat and window net inspections looking for expiry dates. Not sure about the cage which I think will pass muster because they always have with NASA but was surprised when they got into my seat date on my A4 which passed only because it has a rear support, which the stock Challenge does not.

 

BTW, a Ferrari dealer bought it for the last asking price and sold it for $30k more.

 

No problem, I'll try and send photos later....off to dinner from a long day at the track. I'll try and send photos of our day here too.

d