It may have been mentioned before but is there a registry to keep track of the dogs, both cars and sellers? If not should we start one? Ill start: VIN ZFFXA20A4J0077277 http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=243877
Initially that sounds like a good idea, but I think a registry that doesn't pass judgement and label cars as "dogs" would probably be wiser and more fair in the long run. Consider the following: - what may be a dog for one person might just be a driver for another, and labels given by people may carry more weight based on how well known on this forum the poster is rather than his true ability or objectivity in judging a car. For example, there was a person on here a couple of years ago who completely trash talked a 328 that, at the end of the day, had an oil leak and a dirty engine -- simple detailing. Or for another example, most 3X8s have had prior paint work AND rust repair (the usual places); I've seen cars demonized for this here, while for others it was shrugged off. - How does a car get off of the "dog" list? A complete, ground-up restoration? Is the owner of a car going to have to prove to the people on this site (people he doesn't know, most of whom have not seen the car) that he has addressed the issues? And what about the owner's credibility -- what if he is a DIYer? How would the people on this site be able to verify that the work he did was good? And do we really want it to (which I think it would) evolve to a point of having to prove the worth of a car to get it off of the dog list? There are a lot of great minds and great opinions on this site, but there are an equal many that are thick-headed and ignorant -- I don't give FerrariChat as a whole, much less the 308 section as a whole, the credibility of determining whether a car is "good" or "bad". Certain people . . . yes, probably -- I'd have to really get to know them, though. - I don't think it is any more right to label cars as "great" or "dogs" than it is to think of a PPI as "pass" or "fail". ~95% of 308s are somewhere in between; few are worthy of concours preservation awards or are bona fide beaters. And one man's parts car is another man's restoration or track car project. These cars should be looked at with everything taken into consideration, and taken for face value for what they are, and not polarized into one group or another. That will quickly, to some extent, become an owner/seller popularity contest, anyway; for example, any car sold by Schmidt in St. Louis might be labeled as a dog, even if they happen to luck out and get a nice one. - Just as another example, there is a thread here where people (myself included) are complementing a freshly repainted car that had a tree branch fall on it. I was tempted to ask the owner how the repair was done, what method was used, did they use a new roof skin or just straighten the metal, how thick filler, etc.; but I didn't want to call into question or demonize that car by the mere suggestion of asking. These cars are all hand finished, and the quality of a dedicated and conscientious repair facility is likely to produce better quality work than Scaglietti may have when the car was new . . . but in most cases people on this forum won't know a thing about the people doing the repairs or the work itself. - Another point/example -- any car that has had any kind of body repair: These cars, like any old school Ferrari, can be repaird to as-new condition. Sections of oval and square tube steel can be bought to repair or rebuild the frame, body panels are available, etc.; these cars are not unibody that can only be recreated as new by the huge robots that stamped and welded them together initially. The silver 328 of recent discussion is being chastized for having had minor work . . . but the rubino GTBi is being complemented? What, other than the perception of the readers, influences the fact that one car is congratulated for it but the other is demonized? Little information was given about the work on either car. And the fact is, most 3X8s have had some kind of body repair or paint work, whether for rust bubbles, door dings, minor damage, an off at the track, etc.; I'll bet there are many owners on this site who think their car is a pristine original cherry, but in reality have cars that have had body work and they have no clue about what has actually been done to their car. But back to my original point -- it doesn't matter as much with these cars, due to the nature of their construction. - Another point/example -- most 3X8s have had their interiors redyed. Few are still original, and most that are original range from heavy patina to heavy cracking. I've seen some impressive retrimmed seats, and I've seen some that look cartoonish. I've seen awful redyes and incredibly good redyes. We can't, for the most part, judge an interior from photos posted on here -- most will look good, few will look bad -- but of the ones that look good, some will be great and others will be crap. Just like you can't diagnose an engine noise from describing it here, you can't judge an interior until you touch it and see it in person. I could go on about mechanicals, history, etc. . . but don't want to make this post any longer. My suggestion: Keep a registry, but keep it to just the facts, and leave the judgements, opinions, and inferences out of it. I think the 308GT4 registry is well-done in this regard -- it notes things like accidents and color changes, but doesn't attempt to evaluate them. Likewise, I think a GTB/GTS registry should be kept, but not label certain cars as dogs or pass judgement on them -- there is too much opinion, conjecture, and ego involved; and no clearly defined set of standards or universally recognized judges -- so just stick to the facts.
Some here know that I used to run an online registry for 328s, complete with any pictures I could find and associate with any particular VIN. That registry is now down, because folks get really upset when any negative information about their car gets out. Just factual photos of damage was enough to have people hunting me down and threatening legal action. Imagine the pain you are inviting if you label a car "dog"! No thanks.
One must be careful about threads of this type. Lots of pitfalls. Sources of criticism may or may not be reliable either. Dave
Well said Tony & Tillman. My thought was simply to protect the unsuspecting enthusiast; to make sure that he/she isnt scammed. I suppose the best approach is to emphasize research, research, and more research. Following up on what Dave said in the thread that conceived this idea, mentioning a VIN number in a thread makes searching on this site very easy. Its then up to the perspective buyer to sift through the data. For the right price somebody may get a great deal and be very happy with 77277. Lets hope that this little guy finds a good home.
This remind of the Miranda warning (for those outside of US:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_warning). People come here to innocently share information about their car and sometimes about themselves without knowing it can be used against them later. Many here innocently shared the serial number of their cars and stories or pictures of the works done on their cars. Here comes the problem: when looking at the pictures inside of the engine, seeing a dirty engine or clean engine, a person can form an opinion on that: This guy didn't take care of this car or this guy cleaned his engine too well and cleaned up all the original factory over spray on the parts, or that part was not painted like that from factory. Or the guy, who did his water pump, people can see that he's using an inexpensive 14 bucks after market seal instead of an OEM $100 seal. Or the guy who who posted that he loved to drive his Ferrari like Enzo wanted it to be by taking it out on the track every weekend, to us it's great fun but to another it's an abused Ferrari. Potential buyers come to this Ferrarichat and do search of the serial number and can find lots of "amazing" (which could be positive or negative) things on that car or the owner. This could cause people to stop sharing information because they would be concerned that whatever they do by posting the serial number of their cars and things were done on the car, there are potential negative opinions that have been formed about their cars which could be used against them later. My 2 cents.
In the information age if you do not now have the resources to select a good used car, all I can say is maybe you really should stay on your own block and come in the house when the street lights come on. Quit trying to buttonhole every car. There is a bunch of bad ones out there being made into good ones as we speak and they don't deserve to have your brand burned in the side.
I agree with the idea as a "thought experiment". And, there is cetainly no harm in documenting cars with "bad" things in their history (that's why people use CarFax). But the folks associated with the cars??? ------- that's pretty sketchy. Not only will some people surely get p---ed off, but it could even be deemed as defamation or even libel. And, if it is constrewed to have interfered with a sale...... well, you may just find yourself staring down the wrong side of law suit --- even dirtbags have friends who are also dirtbags (but, with law degrees) I'll take my lawyer hat off now....
