Mondial will not start, help please:(

Hi Peter, sounds like the alarm immobilizer got activated. Try reading the manual if you have it or here is the link:
http://www.manualslib.com/manual/28989/Clifford-Concept-50.html

If your alarm was never connected, then this would not be your problem but lets start with the Big Elephant in the room (ALARM).

best,
Mike

 

Hi Peter, this is the part that gets me thinking its your immobilizer when you mess with the LED alarm wiring. Is there a way to disable it or unplug the battery and reset it somehow.
Its odd that it would just happen like that besides a good ground connection problem.

REF in your manual:
Unbreachable Digital ComLink This ingenious Clifford feature guards against any possibility of a thief tampering with the system. Concept 50 maintains a coded digital communications link between the central processing unit microprocessor and the immobiliser’s microprocessor. If a thief tries shorting, cutting or rerouting these lines, the coded data transfer will be interrupted and Concept 50 will instantly immobilise the vehicle and ensure that a thief will not be able to start the engine.

 

You're probably not going to want to hear this, but I'd simply remove every last vestige of the alarm.

I think it is very likely that the alarm has disconnected the fuel pump circuit.

Yes, the fuel pump has a fuse, it should be the fourth one on right hand side of the fuseblock, counting right-to-left from the rightmost fuse. Hard to imagine this would be the problem though, and you've verified the fuses are OK.

I don't know how they interrupt current flow to the fuel pump, but I would assume they have an additional relay in series with the contacts on the fuel pump relay, or they have wired a relay in series with the fuel pump relay coil. Either approach would achieve the same end. If the manual mentions this, you could try to bypass their relay (assuming I'm on the right track here).

With regard to the LED: It seems unlikely, but it is possible the alarm could detect current through the LED and immobilise the car if current flow through the LED stopped. This is not hard to do, but I have no idea if it's part of their tamper detection scheme.

Good luck with this... let us know how it turns out.

 

Peter, I would give Clifford a call and ask about the LED disconnect and could it possibly activated the immobilizer. Toll free emergency helpline at 0800 526708 during normal business hours.

Here is the Concept 50 model UK spec. This bloody thing is over the top on security, to the point the owners with a remote can't get it to disarm. I would rip this out, too complicated for me mate.

link:
http://www.directeddealers.com/manuals/og/clifford/concept50uk_owners.pdf

Here is the wiring diagram if that helps.

Best,
Mike
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That Clifford diagram shows the ignition being disabled, not the fuel pump (although it could be done that way) -- have you put a timing light on it during starter motor cranking to confirm/deny if spark is occurring?

If you can find that added "Ignition Disable Relay", you could just unplug it and use a jumper wire to connect the female terminal 87 in the relay socket to the female terminal 30 in the relay socket (simulating a "happy" alarm system).

 

The ignition -- you shouldn't even think "fuel" until you have confirmed/denied spark operation during starter motor cranking.

(If you do have spark) As a first test, unplug the safety switch on the airflow metering device (near the fuel distributor), turn the key "on" = you should hear the fuel pump run. If it does, your problem is elsewhere; if it doesn't run, try a different ...113 relay in the relay R "Relay for Fuel Pump" position, and a different ...101 relay in the relay S "Fuel injection delivery pump starting-relay" position.

 

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Not worth the hassle -- easier to just try another relay of the same type from another function that is not being used (e.g., from the headlight functions)

 

Just a couple of crazy ideas from an ignorant of this kind of alarms and Mondial too... I don't have one... yet

1) LEDs have a "direction", they function only if they have a current flowing in the right direction. Have you reconnected the led correctly? Probably yes since the cables are color coded but it worth a try... sometimes with dim light could be easy to switch cables. Unless ther is a one way connector...

2) The electronic injected car have a "inertial switch" that cut off the fuel flow in case of accident or collision. I know that it isn't your case but if your car have one of those, maybe it worth a try to look at it.

Other than that I know that almost any alarm thinks that the car was stolen when you disconnect it or you remove the battery (or disconnect it). Try to see if there is some safety feature that is enabled in case like these.
I think that a good expert of the electrical side of the car (sorry I don't know the right word for "elettrauto") can help you to solve this thing.

Sorry for this silly ideas but sometimes, from silly ideas, a good one (and a solution) could be achieved
Regards,
Alessandro

 

Peter,

I think what Steve is asking is you verify that you have spark, if you do, you can swap the relays for the fuel pump by using another of the same relay BOSCH # rather than testing the relay is defective. Surely they all cant have gone bad all of a sudden. see diagram.

My bet to your starting problem is still the Clifford. A Google search on "Clifford Concept 50 car wont start" will turn up lots of folks in your situation with this alarm. Its old, the brain circuitry can get fried and immobilzed your car. I would take the system out, then you have a clean baseline to troubleshoot normally on this Ferrari.

Read this thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1848172

best,
Mike
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As you've discovered, removing and reinstalling these relays is a fairly violent action that gives everything a good shaking and rewipes the connections. In the starting mode, current to close the fuel pump relay passes thru one set of contacts inside relay S, but, when you release the key to run, the current passes thru a different set of contacts inside relay S (so that's why you can have things fire up OK in the starting mode, but the engine will stop after releasing the key to the run position). Might still be something totally unrelated to relay S, but you've got enough evidence to justify buying a new relay S IMO.

 

Buy a small bottle of deoxit, take out each relay, and the plastic wiring connectors on the fuse board (especially the vertical one right of the relays on the right edge of the fuse panel which includes the pin and wire to the fuel pump and can generate alot of heat when even minor invisible corrosion creates resistance), and put some deoxit on each pin. Do this on connectors to the various computers, and the electrics under the passenger foot area and the trunk where the cat overheat sensor is and you will cure or prevent all electrical ills. Fussy, but easy and highly effective.

Also make sure your battery terminals are clean, and coat with a protective grease to prevent blooming corrosion.

 

Glad its working again and all is good Peter.
I would still investigate further to try and find the cause, the problem may come back based on an intermittent relay or alarm about to go bad, or it could very well be corroded or loose connections on your fusebox .

After changing the generator on my 69 Midget, now it wont start, so I know the frustration you went thru. But the MG is so much simpler. I think I need to polarize my generator, check the grounding again. It has fuel, so more likely not getting enough spark due to coil, dizzy, or plugs. I still need to confirm all of that when I have more time.

Best,
Mike

 

I think you can get a better price on relays from electronic distributors like Farnell, Digi-Key, etc. Some require an account (e.g. Anglia in the UK), while others take credit card. I've just ordered a bunch of relays from Mouser Electronics here in the States (Panasonic and Omron parts, all less than $5 US). These are top-quality parts. I've also bought some new Bosch parts. Don't buy generic no-name products in an attempt to save a little.

I think Rock Auto has a UK presence... they are a great source of good parts at good prices here in the States. I buy Bosch relays from them, always competitive prices.

I've been researching the electrical system in some detail, and gathering information as I go.

Here's some info culled from my notes on the three main types of Bosch relays used in our cars. This is still a work in progress. The three Bosch relays are shown in large text, with a description of their contact arrangement and so on. I've listed replacement part numbers that I've thoroughly researched in bold -- I think these are good candidates.

Mini-ISO relays used in Mondial:

---



[size=+1]Bosch 0332204101[/size]
5 pin SPDT relay, break before make (1 Form C)
Coil 85,86
Movable contact 30
Fixed contacts 87, 87a (30 connected to 87a with no voltage applied to coil)

Replacement candidates:

Bosch 0 332 209 137 has resistor across coil for EMF suppression, heavy duty version which handles 50A resistive load on NC connection. (Might be worth investigating)

Bosch 0 332 209 151 should be suitable replacement as it appears to most closely match the original part

Bosch 0 332 209 159 is same as 0332209151 but with resistor across coil.

te.com suggests Tyco Electronics V23134A0008X923-EV-590, not sure of availability

Tyco number 1432785-1 (AgSnO contacts, example I saw is made in China)

These two Omron relays appear to be good replacements:

Omron G8JN-1C7T-DC12 NC contact rated 35A, NO contact rated 20A
Omron G8JN-1C6T-DC12 (weatherproof version of G8JN-1C7T-DC12)

These Panasonic units appear to be equivalent:

Panasonic CB1-12V (40A Standard type)
Panasonic CB1F-12V (40A Standard type, flux resistant housing, might offer better environmental resistance)

The following should substitute, but the unplated terminals are a concern IMO.

Panasonic CB1V-12V (35A, unplated terminals, Sealed type)
Panasonic CB1VF-12V (35A, unplated terminals, Flux resistant housing)

Note to self: Something in the Durakool DG56A series crosses... haven't had time to spec. part number. Hella makes an equivalent... need to look into this too.



---


[size=+1]Bosch 0332014113[/size]
SPST NO relay, contacts 87 and 87a bussed together. (1 Form A ... but with two fixed contacts)
Coil 85,86
Movable contact 30
Two fixed contacts, both labeled 87 (internally connected together) Bosch literature calls this a "double 87 terminal". The TE documentation on Plug-in Mini ISO Relays specifies this contact arrangement as NO_2x87 and "1 form A, 1 NO (2x87)"

Cross references from te.com:
Brand: Tyco Electronics
V23134C0008X901-EV-850 (Cross references from Bosch p/n)

Brand: Tyco Electronics
V23134C0008X901-EV-69A (Cross reference from internal number, may not be generally available)

Brand: Tyco Electronics
V23134C0008Y901-EV-7Z0 (Cross reference from internal number, may not be generally available)

Side note: TE Power Relay F4 product codes all start with V23134, the 'C' which follows specifies SPST NO with dual 87 contacts. So anything that starts with V23134C could potentially work in this application.

Bosch 0 332 019 151 looks like a very good replacement.

Note to self: Hella 4ra 933 332-151 might cross, need to look at specs. Need to look into other manufacturers.



---


[size=+1]Bosch 0332015006[/size]
Technically a SPST NO DM relay (1 Form U)

It has one movable dual contact and two fixed contacts, It can be thought of as a DPST relay with both movable contacts tied to a single terminal. TE describes this arrangement as "double make on armature". Note that the when disengaged, the 30, 87 and 87b contacts are all isolated from one another. When the coil is energized, they are all connected together.

Coil 85,86
Movable contact 30
Fixed contacts 87, 87b

Rating 32v 2 x 15A (from relay markings)

Cross references from te.com:

Brand: Tyco Electronics V23134M0062X915-EV-590 (cross from Bosch p/n)
Brand: Tyco Electronics V23134M0062Y915-EV-896 (cross from TE p/n)

Tyco F4 parts seem to mostly have AgNiO contacts.

Zettler should have a part in the AZ9731 product range, need to look into this.

Since there's only one of these used I'd just get the Bosch part. This contact arrangement is far less common than the other two.

 

Hey, I'm glad that you are back in business!
Alessandro