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01C or 02C The first ?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Gilles, Apr 28, 2004.

  1. Gilles

    Gilles Karting

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  2. El Wayne

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    Gilles, here is an interesting article on the subject that appeared in Forza magazine a while back. The article includes a quote from fellow F-Chatter Gerald Roush: http://www.theautochannel.com/publications/magazines/forza/number6/pg24.frame
     
  3. Gilles

    Gilles Karting

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    #3 Gilles, Apr 28, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks, Wayne
    For me the first Ferrari is the car racing at Piacenza in 47.
    We see that for ones it's 01C (M. Muller in the thread in my first post) and 02C for others (In the Forza article, it's said 01C is a fender cycle car)
    This problem is in all books, sometimes 01C, sometimes 02C...
    The Piacenza car is a roadster.
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  4. El Wayne

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    Gilles, I could be wrong, but this is the way I understand it:

    01C originally had a full spyder body (not cycle-fendered) when it made it's first appearance at Piacenza in 1947 at the hands of Franco Cortese. With this same coachwork, it also competed in 1948 at the Rome GP, the Cicuito di Vercelli (Coppa Faini), the Mille Miglia, the Circuito di Parma, the Circuito delle Cascine (Florence), and the Circuito di Montenero (Livorno). Ferdinando Righetti later crashed the car during practice in Modena and it was subsequently rebodied with the cycle-fendered coachwork and renumbered 010I.

    I believe that 02C was also slated to run at Piacenza (to be driven by Nino Farina, yet never started), but that it was a cycle-fendered car from the beginning.

    Again, this is just what I understand from what I've read and information provided by others. I have never personally researched these early cars any further. I would be curious to see what Gerald and others have to say.
     
  5. Boudewijn

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    #5 Boudewijn, Apr 28, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The first appearance was on May 11th at the Circuito di Piacenza. Originally Farina was to drive the cycle fendered 125 S Competizione, but only attained the 6th place on the starting grid with Cortese in 2nd. After practice Farina demanded to drive Cortese's car in the race, and when this was denied he withdrew from the race in anger, so only 01C started.
    Here are some pics. The first of the Piacenza race, the second from the Coppa Faini in Vercelli on 1th of June 1947 and the last from the Circuito di Pescara on Aug.15th 1947, all with Franco Cortese as the driver.
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  6. Gilles

    Gilles Karting

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    #6 Gilles, Apr 28, 2004
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    I have always a problem, is this car is 01C.
    01C was rebodied and renumbered in 1947 as 010I, so what is the car at the mille miglia 48 ? 02C rebodied as 01C ? For me the car in alls pics is 02C.
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  7. El Wayne

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    02C was rebodied with full spyder coachwork prior to the MM photo you posted. Here are a few shots of it with its original cycle-fendered body in 1947. The first two are from the Primavera Roma del Motore at Circuito delle Terme di Caracalla on June 5, 1947. The other two were taken at the Circuito di Vigevano on June 15, 1947:
     
  8. El Wayne

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    I linked this thread back to the Nostalgia Forum. Here is Michael Müller's response:

     
  9. Gilles

    Gilles Karting

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    Ok....
    But I'll be very happy if I can seen (At least, at Pescara the 2 cars are presents) a picture with the 2 roadsters on it.... Never see one !
    I can't understand why, one became a roadster from a cycle fender spider (02C) and the other (01C) a cycle fender spider from a roadster ?
    Thanks very much to Wayne and M. Muller, connecting the 2 forum is a very good idea !
     
  10. Boudewijn

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    #10 Boudewijn, Apr 28, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  11. Gilles

    Gilles Karting

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    For the second pic, I see one of this in race, so it's 02C with it new body ?
     
  12. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn Moderator
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    That's correct.
     
  13. Gilles

    Gilles Karting

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    Boudewijn, in your impressive collection of pictures do you have a pic of the dashboard of the cycle fender spider ?
    I w'll be very interesting to see one and compare it with the pic of the no bodied car, with Enzo at the wheel.
    The back of dashboard instrument we can see is not same as the dashboard of the roadster car ? And front air intake is most adapted for the cycle fender...
    Gilles
     
  14. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

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    Tino Martinoli was a mechanic with a shop in Rome and eventually came to America as a mechanic with the Ferrari Indy team in the 50s. He actually repaired a spun main bearing on the car so it could run at the race in which Ferrari gained it's first victory ever.

    He always implied that the first car was 01C and it became 010I. This was mentioned by me in a number of letters to the editor in Forza and other Ferrari magazines over the last 10 years or so...
     
  15. jpl

    jpl Formula Junior

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    Not to hijack the thread, but aren't the 2 815's built in late 39/40 considered the first Ferrari's to be raced (sn 020, and 021). These 2 cars were not called Ferraris, but they are the 2 first cars Ferrari built and raced as his own. 1.5 liter 8 cylinders, hence the 815 designation.

    Just a thought.

    Regards,
    JP
     
  16. bobafett

    bobafett F1 Veteran

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    To all:

    where have these two cars gone? Destroyed and remains unknown? In the hands of a collector?

    --Dan
     
  17. Boudewijn

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    #17 Boudewijn, Apr 29, 2004
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    Sorry Gilles, couldn't find a interior shot of the cycle fendered #02C. Just another shot of #02C's rebodied first race at Pescara.
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  18. dretceterini

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    One of the 2 Auto Avio 815s still exist in Italy. There is a book on them that was published by Nada in Italy and should still be available from his retail shop, Libreria 'Dell Automobile in Milan.

    The other 815 appears to have been destroyed. They were slightly different from one another in the fact one had a longer tail section. I don't know if these cars should be considered Ferraris or not, as most of the development work was done by Nardi. I believe Auto Avio/Ferrari was only involved in the financing and ownership.
     
  19. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Very interesting. How does all that relate to the bodywork that 002C has now, which doesn't seem to match any of the pics above?

    (BTW, 002C is for sale... see this thread.)
     
  20. El Wayne

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    Brian, that's because the pics that we posted are of 02C (now 020I), not 002C.
     
  21. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
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    Wayne,

    Now I'm confused. I thought the car in the Forbes article is a resurection of the first Ferrari (the one being discussed in this thread) based on the frame and a few suspension bits. If 002C, 020I and 02C are different cars, what is their relation? Which one actualy is first? If unrelated, what is the history of the car in the Forbes article?

    Thanks,

    Art S.
     
  22. Boudewijn

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    #22 Boudewijn, May 4, 2004
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    Hi Art,

    #02C became #020I. #002C was the first SC car, original description 159 SC, as can be seen here in its second race which it won on oct.12 1947 in the GP di Torino in 1947 with Sommer at the wheel. Its first race was the Modena sports car race on sept.28 1947 of which the second pic is taken.
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  23. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    #23 Brian C. Stradale, May 5, 2004
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    Ahhh, I knew they had gone and renumbered the first few cars... but I missed the fact that they then went and reused the same number/letters for other cars. (Yes, I would otherwise consider 002C, 02C, and 2C to all be the same number... ;) ) Thanks for enlightening me!
     
  24. Michael Muller

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    Did not had the time to post here, only at my “standard” forum “TNF” (The Nostalgia Forum), because I was leaving for business trip. After my return now I have some more time, and I will try to add some info to this topic.
    A few words to myself, I’m no “Ferraristi” or “red cap” or something in this direction, Ferrari for me is simply a research object, and no passion (probably I will be excluded from this forum now...?!).
    I spend a couple of years to research the history of the very early tipo 125/159, that of the Spyder Corsas, plus the Colombo engined monoposti up to 1951. Reason for this research was the fact that very little has been published about the monoposti (most people believe there was no motor racing prior to 1950...!), and a lot of faulty or even untrue stories about the predecessors (125/159/166 S, C & SC), very often influenced by “refined” chassis logs of existing cars.

    The late Stanley Nowak was the first who did research on these early Ferraris as early as the 60’s, but very often he made history fit to the car, and not the other way round. When he sold #004C to Henry Austin Clark he asked - and received - a premium of $ 500 for the “oldest Ferrari existing”, and when he later discovered #002C he was somewhat in trouble with his argumentation. He then brought up various stories, among them that #01C was renumbered #004C, in order to make both customers happy. And when some of his “histories” stood at the point to collapse, he “invented” #03C”, a car which never existed...!
    Unfortunately a lot of good old Stan’s “history creations” are still alive today.

    Acc. to my research #01C meaning the Piacenza Roadster was the first real Ferrari, where I consider a “Ferrari” a car wearing this name and the prancing horse badge.

    [​IMG]

    There’s no need to compare this dashboard with that of the cycle fender car #02C, because the bredth is obvious.

    The idea behind the cycle fender car was to use is simultaneously as sports car and as race car (without fenders and lights), but I only know one single appearance of #02C as race car, which was at the “Primavera Romana del Motore” at Rome, which included a race for 1500 cc racing cars. This was unusual, because normally such races had been organized for 1100 cc cars only. #02C was crashed by Ferrari’s chief engineer Luigi Bazzi during a test ride end of July, and the fact that there had been no races for 1500 cc race cars, plus the rather ugly bodywork of #02C, lead to the decision to convert it to a roadster similar as #01C. However, possibly this decision was made too early, as we will see.

    [​IMG]

    This is the original version of #01C (resp. the “Piacenza Roadster”), as raced from May to July 1947. Main grille with 6 bars, brake vents with 3 bars, and an air intake with 2 bars. For the Livorno race at the Circuito di Montenero on 24 Aug 1947 it had 2 additional cooling vents, as could be seen on the photo below.

    [​IMG]

    One week earlier - or exactly 9 days because this race took place always on Ferragosta holiday - this car was driven by Franco Cortese at Pescara:

    [​IMG]

    The sideline is somewhat different from that of the Piacenza Roadster, e.g. the front wings do not reach as low, and the fuel filler is mounted on top of the rear. The differentials are even more visible here:

    [​IMG]

    The brake vents are wider, and above the main grille 3 cooling holes without grilles could be spotted. This is definitively not the same car as raced one week later by Nuvolari at Livorno. And no, this is not #03C, because this car never existed! All (reliable) sources confirm that at this time only 2 cars existed. And not to forget the fact that Bazzi damaged the cycle wing car heavily after the Firenze race on 20 July. So I am convinced that the Pescara car was in fact #02C with new roadster bodywork.

    In the meantime the FIA had introduced 2 new race classes for 1948. One was the “Formule Internationale” for 2 liter sports cars, the other was the “Formule 2”, a secondary class for race cars, also for 2 liter atmospheric (unsupercharged) engines. Colombo, who had returned to Ferrari after a short intermezzo at his old employer Alfa Romeo, picked up the old idea of a race car suitable for both categories, and the first Spyder Corsa (#002C, not to be mixed up with #02C) was built. This car had the new enlarged tipo 159 (59 x 58 mm) engine, which was also already used for the Pescara car.

    #002C was first raced by Franco Cortese at Modena on 28 September.

    [​IMG]

    It was more elegant than the old cycle fender car, and in fact the first car of the Spyder Corsa series.

    The story of the second Modena car is somewhat confusing. It is reported that #01C was scheduled for this race, but that it has been crashed by Ferdinando Righetti during a test ride. As result he was forced to drive the smaller - still 1500 cc (55 x 52.5 mm) engined - car for the race, which is reported for being #02C. Picture of this car here below:

    [​IMG]

    This is the same car as shown on the picture posted by Boudewijn, and also the same car as on the picture of the Mille Miglia 1948 posted by Gilles. But...
    It looks different than #02C at Pescara 6 weeks earlier, and to make confusion even bigger, it also looks different than #01C 5 weeks earlier at Livorno...! And if in fact #02C, why then the old tipo 125 engine? This would mean that the 159 engine after Pescara had been switched to #01C (which had been crashed by Righetti before Modena), but why doing so, it would have been easier to enter the Pescara car (#02C) for Modena. And why didn’t they take the 159 engine from the crashed #01C and mount it back into #02C for Modena?

    And to make the story even more confusing, what car did they enter for Cortese at Pescara 1948? Righetti’s Modena 1947 car was upgraded during the winter to full 2 liter 166 (60 x 58 mm) specification, and used with the same bodywork for the 1948 Targa Florio (3/4 April), and the 1948 Mille Miglia (1/2 May), but for Modena (15 August) Cortese drove this car:

    [​IMG]

    Completely different nose than the 1948 MM car, but no accident is reported.

    In that period Ferrari was always short on cash, and every car has been sold as early as possible, meaning as soon as it was not needed anymore for the works team. #01C obviously disappeared after Righetti’s crash in September 1947, so it is likely that in fact it was rebuilt as Spyder Corsa and renumbered #010I. But was it really #01C which was crashed and #02C which was raced? Could it not be the other way round? Fact is that we have 3 different looking cars for Livorno, Pescara, and Modena, with the last “picture proven” case to be #01C for Livorno. Righetti’s Modena entered car looks different than Cortese’s Pescara car, which is reported as #02C, so if there was no 3rd roadster around it must have been either #01C or #02C. But why changing the bodywork without any damage reported?
    And why did Cortese’s 1948 Pescara car has another nose than that of the 1948 Mille Miglia? Both are reported as #02C, and no damage by accident is known.

    A lot of questions which are still open....
     
  25. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Great Post! Thanks very much. Which car do you think this is and what's it's history? I'm still a bit confused.
     

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