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09C/012I

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Ed Niles, Oct 11, 2004.

  1. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
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    Here's a puzzle for you early Ferrari fans: In1976 I partnered with Bill to import from Willy Felber in CH a very early "barchetta", alleged to be 09C. When the car arrived, we searched but could not find a chassis no. The very early engine had been restamped to 116. The diff was stamped 018. The entire front of the frame had been changed to coils and tube shocks. The only correct looking instrument was the Jaeger tach. The body was a rough approximation of a Touring barchetta, with rivets all along the body-side ridges. This was apparently the car that David Seielstad describes as 012I.

    Because we could not find a telaio no., Bill insisted on sending the car back to Felber. I've always wondered what that car was. A "Bitsa"?

    Does anyone really know what it was? What ever happened to it?
     
  2. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

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    Ed:

    Please post photos of the car when you imported it, if you have any.

    Stu Schaller
     
  3. evandaalen

    evandaalen Formula 3
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  4. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
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    Ed, Mark Ketcham says he has owned this car since 1999. Here is his response to your post:

    Hello Ed,


    Great to have you back in the Ferrari world. You've been missed. You have a great deal to offer the newbies and oldies alike. Hope you're well!!


    Anyway, Wayne had forwarded me your comments and questions about the 1948 Ferrari 166 SC Barchetta #012 I.


    Your timing and comments are quite unfortunate, as I was hoping to keep the car under covers for another year or so until it finishes restoration, and then have it debut. But, your comments require a response. So here's a brief history of the car:


    1) In 1948 the car was completed as a 166 SC (Spyder Corsa), chassis #012 I and used by Scuderia Ferrari, with such drivers as Righetti, Bianchetti, Count Bruno Sterzi and Giovanni Bracco.

    2) In 1949, it was sold to Giovanni Bracco. Bracco won the 1949 Championship with the car.


    3) In December 1949, it was sold to Count Vittorio Marzotto for the Scuderia Marzotto squad. In early 1950, Count Marzotto commissioned Paulo Fontana, an Italian coachbuilder, to build the barchetta body for the car. Fontana built a number of cars for the Marzottos and others. You will note that Fontana drove the car with Count Marzotto in the 1950 Mille Miglia:

    * 1950 Mille Miglia, 9th OA/6th Class (Over 2,000cc cars), Count Vittorio Marzotto/Paolo Fontana #722 (23 April )


    There is a picture of this very famous car in virtually every book on the Mille Miglia if you care to look. The best known picture of the car is when they're driving it across the bridge at 'Ponte di Peschiera', probably one of the most famous pictures from any Mille Migia. There's also a great color picture of the car in Alla Mille Miglia, a color photo of the car at Villa Marzotto, sitting next to the 1950 MM winning berlinetta #0026, which Victorio's brother, Count Giannino Marzotto drove to victory that year. Very cool pic and a very beautiful car, showing the riveting along the body's longitudinal side panel. It's quite like the beautiful riveting you see on Ferrari and Maserati fuel & oil tanks. If you don't think that kind of art and craft is beautiful, then I suppose it's a difference of opinion.


    4) Ed, you wrote: "The very early engine had been restamped to 116. "


    If you read the reports ('Red Arrows' by Marzotto, for example) from the 1950 Mille Miglia, you'll see that #012 I is described as a "195S". Confirming this, I have the original Italian PRA documents which note an upgrade of the engine. The engine was later upgraded again in 1952. Scuderia Marzotto raced this car through 1952.


    5) Ed, you wrote: "The entire front of the frame had been changed to coils and tube shocks."


    Correct. This was done some time during it's racing career. In it's restoration, I've found original 1948 transverse leafs and hydraulic shocks for the car which are not on it.


    6) Ed, you wrote: ""When the car arrived, we searched but could not find a chassis no. ".


    Understandable, as it required a helluva lotta looking, sanding and scraping. There are two very clear stampings of #012 I on the car, one on the right rear upright, and the other on the front cross member (passenger side) about 10-12 centimeters in.


    7) I bought #012 I in 1999 and it's been undergoing a very slow restoration. The restoration has been both an adventure as well as a helluva lot of frustration and EXPENSE. The adventure, I would think would be obvious, the frustration comes from trying to find and secure 1948 parts. Believe me, it is not like trying to find 250 GT parts.


    8) The original chassis, Fontana barchetta body, engine, etc., etc. have all been retainedAnd I definitely have "as found" pictures of the car, so it's definitely not as you query a, "bitsa".


    9) Again, I'm sorry this had to come out before the car's debut, but with the wonders of the internet, it's a small world.


    If you are interested, here's the race history for the car:


    Ferrari 166 SC (#012 I)
    RACE HISTORY:
    Scuderia Ferrari entries:
    1948:
    o 1948 Bari GP, DNF, Righetti (30 May) #race number???
    o 1948 Jun Mantua, 7th, Bianchetti (13 June) #16
    o 1948 Pescara, 2nd OA, Count Bruno Sterzi (15 August) #12 (See the book: "Tipo 166" there is a pic on page 33 of cars #12 (012 I). See pic on computer file.
    * 1948 Coppa d'Oro delle Dolomitti, 9th OA, Count Bruno Sterzi/Monari #171 (11 July)
    Per David: By the way it appears that #171 Sterzi in the 1948 Dolomiti 9th is 012I using engine 022I (this engine is now in the first barchetta 0002M). There is a not very good photo on pg. 42 of the Dolomiti book.
    o 1948 Garda Cup (Circuit del Garda), DNF, G. Bracco (23 October) #18
    o 1948 ?, 1st OA, Giovanni Bracco
    o 1948 Rocco di Papa Hillclimb (Gallenga Cup), 1st OA, Giovanni Bracco (14 Nov.) #??

    1949:
    * 1949 Giro di Sicilia, DNF, Giovanni Bracco (20 March)
    Also called:
    o 1949 Targa Florio, DNF, Giovanni Bracco (20 March)
    o 1949 San Remo, 6th OA, Giovanni Bracco (3 April) #12
    >>>Sold to Giovanni Bracco 22 April 1949: ok
    o 1949 Mille Miglia, DNF, Giovanniimb, 1st OA, Giovanni Bracco (22 May) #??
    o 1949 Como-Lieto Hillclimb, 1st OA, Giovanni Bracco (26 May) #??
    o 1949 Naples GP, DNF, Giovanni Bracco (19 June) #??
    o 1949 Giro di Umbria, DNF, Giovanni Bracco (29 June)
    o 1949 Bolzano-Mendola Hillclimb, 3rd OA, Giovanni Bracco (3 July) #??
    o 1949 Coppa d'Oro delle Dolomitti, DNF, Giovanni Bracco (17 July) #140
    o 1949 Aossta-San Bernardo Hillclimb, 1st Class (2 litre)/2nd OA, Giovanni Bracco (28 Aug.) #62
    >>I have these pics of the 1949 Aosta-Gran San Bernardo run held on the 20th of August. They show Giovanni Bracco in his 166 SC. He finished first in class over 2000 cmc. He made the second fastest time overall.
    o 1949 Pontedecimo-Giovi Hillclimb, 1st OA, (18 September) #70
    o 1949 Biella-Oropa Hillclimb, 1st OA, Giovanni Bracco (25 Sept.) #??
    o 1949 Vermicino-Rocco di Papa Hillclimb, 2nd OA, G. Bracco (16 Oct.)

    >>>Giovanni Bracco was the Italian Hillclimb champion in 1949.
    >>>December 1949 Sold To Count Vittorio Marzotto for his Scuderia Marzotto. In early 1950 Count Marzotto commissioned a one-off barchetta body by Fontana.

    1950 (Converted to Fontana Barchetta bodywork):
    * 1950 Giro di Sicilia, DNF, Giannino Marzotto/Marco Crosara #455 (April 2)
    AKA 1950 Targa Florio
    * 1950 Mille Miglia, 9th OA/6th Class (Over 2,000cc cars), Vittorio Marzotto/Paolo Fontana #722 (23 April )
    >> Car described as a 195 S Fontana Barchetta in the 1950 MM.
    * 1950 Treponti-Castelnuovo hillclimb, 1st OA, Vittorio Marzotto
    (1 Oct.) (Speed was 76.84 kph.)
    o 1951 Modena GP, 2nd OA, Froilan Gonzales #6 (23 September)
    (Scuderia Marzotto entry)
    o 1952 Syracuse GP, 6th OA, Franco Commotti #2 (16 March)
    (Scuderia Marzotto entry)
    Ref: Ferrari Owner Club UK, Spring 1975 pg. 60
    o 1952 Paris GP, DNF engine, Franco Comotti #36 (25 May)
    (Scuderia Marzotto entry)


    Cheers,


    ~Mark
     
  5. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn Moderator
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    #5 Boudewijn, Oct 12, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  6. Ed Niles

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    Thanks, Mark, for your very comprensive reply- I'm glad 012I is in good hands! I wish I could have persuaded Bill Schanbacher to keep it, but he was a very stubborn guy when he wanted to be. I look forward to seeing you and 012I some day. I still have the same office address.
     
  7. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Wow and interesting.

    I must say while it is neat that the owner/restorer has found original 1948 leafsprings ... they surely would not be usable.

    Leafsprings age and should surely be replaced just like any spring to ensure the car drives correct and is safe.

    I am sure that new ones will be made by copying the originals ... ? (hopefully), as just like shocks, nobody in their right mind would install old, unfunctional shocks on any car. Atleast you would restore the shocks to correct working condition ... or maybe just use them for shows.

    I guess I am on to that old topic again ... should a car be restored to fully working condition or exactly how it looked?. Personally I can see no reason why a car cannot be restored to exactly how it looked and full working condition, but it all depends whether you get your knickers in a twist about whether the original bolts, springs, etc. are still used.

    Pete
    ps: BUT I have been thinking of restoring the look of my Alfas original shocks (because they are actually the original type) and using them just for concours shows ... and replacing them with Konis for driving. Should be worth a few points ... until they do the shock bounce test ;) :D
     
  8. shaughnessy

    shaughnessy Formula 3
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    Bill Foss owns this car and has had a dificult time completing the project in Italy since 1999. Long distance restorations generally do not work. Mark Ketcham is the broker, not the owner

    Tom Shaughnessy
     
  9. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
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    Hi Tom. Mark's reply:

    Tom,


    You wrote:


    "Bill Foss owns this car and has had a difficult time completing the project in Italy since 1999. Long distance restorations generally do not work. Mark Ketcham is the broker, not the owner."


    Several things:


    1) I bought the 166 (#012 I) from the previous Swiss owner. I have ALL the documentation to prove same.


    2) I have a significant amount of money still invested in the car. I have many, many bills and receipts to prove that, as well. Bill Foss is a helluva nice guy, but generally, a pretty low profile guy, which is why I didn't bring his name into the matter... but now that you've shot your mouth off about something you know little about, I suppose it doesn't much matter.


    3) Given the caliber of cars I've seen you towing around the last number of years, "hand grenaded", etc., I really don't how you'd qualify as an expert on restorations, here or abroad.


    Heh.


    All the best,


    Cheers,
    Mark
     
  10. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

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    Now now.....no pissing contests PLEASE....
     
  11. 4CamGT

    4CamGT Formula 3
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    I'm new to the Ferrari world. Could someone explain to me the difference between a "Bitsa" and a period rebody with modified/new pieces and when a car is restored with a new body back to its period rebody?
     
  12. shaughnessy

    shaughnessy Formula 3
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  13. shaughnessy

    shaughnessy Formula 3
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    To repeat myself, "Long Distance restorations generally do not work"
    I am quite qualified to make that statement. Five Years and this is as far the car has gotten???? 1999 it was purchased correct?

    Let the subscribers decide with my previous post.
    picture Oct 20,2004 in Northern California.

    In my opinion, 012i is 275,000 to 350,000 away from finished, but to illustrate my objectiveness,
    012i has a great history and is worthy of completion.
    I am sure the shop's estimate will back up my professional opinion.

    Most Spyder Corsas have issue, they were old race cars, continually upgraded,some/most rebodied,
    some back to cycle fender, some to envelope bodies.

    One question, What is going on with the chassis rail that appears to be not connected to the front cross member?

    Cheers,

    Tom Shaughnessy
    Ferrari Parts and Sales
    San Clemente CA

    BTW
    I do have Spyder Corsa pieces being I did buy Grand Prix SSR spares,Long Island NY, years ago.
     
  14. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Gee Tom,

    If I was restoring this car and you pomposity spoke to me like that, I'd be tempted to remove you from my christmas card list ;).

    The owner of the car can take as fncken long as they like to restore the car ... it's not yours. Maybe they have funds issues ... or other things going on in their lives.

    My 1750GTV restoration is now in it's 17th year ... yep should have been finished ages ago, but in between time I have restored other cars, built a race car, got a University degree, moved to Australia, got married and had kids!!! ... now I am just getting back into it, plan to finish in another 4 years (thanks to family commitments, etc. it will probably take that long).

    Pete
     
  15. shaughnessy

    shaughnessy Formula 3
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    This has recently become a subject with censored photos ( some of the photos I published) on Telaio, I believe it now will discussed in the future at the IAC/PFA meeting by a panel of historians and restoration professionals at Cavallino.

    Details to follow


    Tom Shaughnessy
     
  16. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
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    No such sensorship on F-Chat. I fail to see how the photos you took and posted on this site are in violation of any of our rules.
     
  17. gtofreak

    gtofreak Karting

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    Censored because it is not a genuine Ferrari? The body looks new.
     
  18. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    More than likely an authentication issue ... maybe there is now 2 x 0121 chassis'.

    The body being new does not stop a car being a genuine Ferrari or not ... just whether it has been rebodied or not, and thus affects its value, etc.

    Pete
     
  19. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
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    Ok, to make it clear (although some of you know very good and well why the photos were censored!), the photos have been censored on another forum because a party with a financial interest in the car believes that the photos were taken without the permission of the shop owner. The photographer says otherwise. The photos are not being censored on FerrariChat because they were posted by the actual photographer and there is no copyright issue at stake here.
     
  20. 4CamGT

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    This car is like your great grandfather's hammer where the head has been replaced once and the handle has been replaced twice!

    Freeman
     
  21. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Anyhoo... everybody's happy.
     
  22. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

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    Simple. A museum piece should be original. It's a statue of a car so to speak. A CAR needs to run in some semblence of safe manner so concessions to originality are called for. Any 1940's Ferrari that can be made road worthy should definitely be made so!! Why lock it away in a room?

    Ken
     
  23. carvad

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  24. tritone

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  25. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    I understand the RM auction at Monaco will be held on the 12th May 2012 during the Monaco historics. Still a few weeks to go and plenty of time to do the catalog.

    Marcel Massini
     

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