125 and 159

Not many people know that Ferrari constructed two 125 replicas. The first one was a replica (rather than a recreation) and wasn't intended to be exactly as the original. But the company entrusted with building the replica were given wrong information. There was a mix-up at Ferrari with the old blueprints and instead of being built on a 2420mm chassis it was built at 2160mm - the wheelbase of the single-seater 166. As a consequence the first reconstruction of the 125 ended up 260mm (10") too short. Ferrari then decided to build a proper reconstruction which there are photos of earlier in the thread.
Nathan

PS - just out of interest - Ferrari built 2no 125 engines for the recreation - so there is a spare.

 

That's great info. As for driving a 166 that shouldn't be a problem should you ever be in the area.

Best

 

The Attached pictures where taken around 1985 while this car was in the Netherlands.
It was said that it was 166/002. Is this correct….or is it another car halfway restoration.
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Nathan,

If you happen to visit Jim for a drive in 002C, maybe you could take a look at some Chassis tuming on another of his cars .

Regards,

Art S.

 

I knew there were AT LEAST two, but was unaware any had the wrong w/b. I have never actually seen the first car or any others that might have been built; other than the one which was shown on Rodeo Road in Beverly Hills a few years ago.

BTW, do you have any photos of the chassis? Most of us involved in this discussion have seen the coachwork, but not the chassis.

Best,
Stu

 

If I remember correctly (I haven't seen the car in 20 years) the Auto Avio 815 has the throttle in the center.

 

Hi Martijn
Are you sure it was 1985? It is 002C but IIRC it was in Holland in 1993. By the way, have you got any more photos of the chassis, especially where the seats would have been?
Nathan

 

Hi Stu - no photos of the chassis yet; I'll keep looking.
Interestingly, (I keep using that word here don't I?) the Gilco drawing of the 125 chassis looks nothing like the photo. (just in case you want to check - http://www.gilcodesign.com/doc/des/Ferrari125.htm ) but Colombo's original sketch for the 125 shows the cross-bar but no lateral bar.
The first Ferrari blueprint also shows a column gear change - that never happened.
Nathan

 

Questions:

In the 26 August 1979 Autocar article regarding 010I, what were the measurements of:

Wheelbase:
Front Track:
Rear Track:

 

002C's chassis? I've posted many photo's of 002C's chassis it's defineately 159/166 not 125.

 

You're right of course. Brain fade - sorry
Nathan

PS - Just out of intetest - what's the w/b of 002C?

 

Wheelbase: 94"
Front Track: not mentioned
Rear Track: not mentioned
Nathan

 

I'm sure you're familiar with this, but...
http://www.johnstarkeycars.com/pages/articles/articles_05.html

At the outset of this article Mr. Starkey makes it clear he believes the first Ferrari survives today - chassis number having been discovered by Symbolic Motors. He mentions pictures of the first Ferrari chassis in ancient photographs on page 3 - starting at top paragraph. Following is from page 5:

Last paragraph:
That doyen of motor racing writers, Denis Jenkinson, was the “Continental correspondent” of the respected British magazine, the “Motor Sport”. He inspected 010I during the winter of 1949/50 and measured the wheelbase as 2420 mm and the front and rear track as 1255 and 1200 mm respectively.
_____

Are these figures correct for 159 and 166?:

Wheelbase = 2420.6 mm
Front Track = 1254.8 mm
Rear Track = 1198.9 mm

 

I agree. The photos and drawings that can be found make no sense.

 

CERTIFICATO D'ORIGINE
N. 003
Certifichiamo che L'autoveicolo sotto descritto e stato
construito nella nostra officina:

AUTOTELAIO tipo 166-I

N 002

L'autoveicola e stato consegnato nuovo di fabbrica il 30 Decembre 1947

(The third Ferrari built 01C and 02C being the first two.)

What tipo is listed for 01C and 02C?

Are they N.001 and N.002 "CERTIFICATO D'ORIGINE" ?

What is the Official date "nuovo di fabbrica of 01C and 02C?

What "N." is 010I given in it's "CERTIFICATO D'ORIGINE" ?

What tipo is listed for 010I?

What is the Official date "nuovo di fabbrica of 010I?

These IMO are important question to be answered.

002C's wheelbase is listed on her FIA papers as:

241cm
Track F 128.5 cm
Track R 122 cm

I will confirm by measurement as, as we've seen in the past, some times published measurements are wrong.

 

Keep in mind track is measured through the center of the tire tread so it may vary with tires that are fitted.

 

Thank you wax for pointing towards this - I hadn't seen it before. The article actually starts here;
http://www.johnstarkeycars.com/pages/articles/articles_01.html
and makes fascinating reading. For those of you who don’t have the time to read it all - here are the pertinent bits;

“During this time, the remnants of 01C’s original, full width body were stripped off the car and a “Spyder Corsa” cycle fender body, following closely that of the Turin-winning car was substituted. The original bolster tank was kept, this having no provision for a spare wheel but today, one can still see where the brackets which supported the original body were cut off the chassis.
Thus in January, 1948, Ferrari had two 159's, chassis numbers 02C and 002C, (the third car built in 1947) and one 166, chassis number 01C, on the tracks. Shortly thereafter they were joined by another car, 004C and two of these cars, chassis numbers 002C and 004C, had their engines uprated to 166 specification and were bought by Gabriele Besana and his brother, the Count Soave Besana. Enzo Ferrari was now offering to sell off his 1947 cars, (as new, re-bodied models!),
01C, in the meantime, had probably been re-numbered to “010I”, simply by the expedient of transforming the “C” into a “0” and stamping in an extra “I”. It was then fitted with new Spyder Corsa bodywork and sold to a new racing team, “Gruppo Inter” (Team International).
Whilst at Symbolic’s service department, a lead plug, painted in the colour of the chassis and bearing the chassis number “010I”, was removed to display the number: “01C” beneath, thus proving, for once and all that the car had, as had long been thought, been re-numbered. On November 20th, a new U.S. registration was issued shofender (sic) the chassis number as 01C. 01C/010I currently wears at least its sixth body and has now been re-bodied back to its original style full-width roadster body style, the same as it wore at Piacenza when it first started a race on May 11th, 1947.” (bold and underline by piloti)

Looks like the present owner had the same idea.

My bet is that you are going to see 01C/010I. Let us know what you think when you've seen it. Sorry I can’t be there.
Nathan

 

Will do. I hope I can see the chassis at the shock mounts which would be very cool to know if they are 125.

 

I agree that 01C became 010I, but I would like to see photos of the chassis that shows as first built, and other photos showing the chassis when first converted, circa 1948, to 010I.

I would very much like to see exactly what was done, and I'm sure many others would too.....now to just find the proper photos somewhere.

 

Stu - welcome to the dark side

As for photos - the problem is that they probably don't exist. To Ferrari it was simply a matter of racing, then selling. They couldn't possibly have imagined that nearly 60 years later anyone would be interested.
Nathan

 

Yes, I think that is probably the case...but then again, exactly what documents does have that they used to make the 125 replica?...
and yes, I am quite aware I am a bit obsessive and compulsive about it; just part of my "character"

 

Actually, I've been on the dark side for as long as I can remember

Yes, I think that is probably the case that photos don't exist...but then again, exactly what documents does Ferrari have that they used to make the 125 replica?...and yes, I am quite aware I am a bit obsessive and compulsive about it; just part of my "character"

 

Stu and Nathan,

I would suspect that photos of 01C in chassis form should exist. As the car was from the first prototype batch, I would expect that there was relatively good documentation. I suspect there are also pictures of the various racing accidents taken in situ by amateur photographers which should be useful in looking at 010I. The question is, will the pictures turn up.

However, I doubt the modification on 01C into 010I will turn up in pictures as it was a bit on the shady side.

Regards,

Art S.

 

FWIW, while I don't have Track measurements at hand, your 241cm wheelbase corresponds closely with a measurement I have for 125 S:
Wheelbase = 2413 mm

__________________
Are the figures below accurate?

159 S
Wheelbase 2420.6 mm
Front Track 1254.8 mm
Rear Track 1198.9 mm

166 SC (004C)
Wheelbase 2420.6 mm
Front Track 1264.9 mm
Rear Track 1249.7 mm
____________________
Bold is mine, as 2 quite different measurements are offered:
On Starkey's site, it lists the following in middle of Pg. 3:
Wheelbase 7 ft. 11 1/2 ins. • 7 ft. 6 1/2 ins.
Track, front 4 ft. • 3 ft. 10 1/2 ins.
Track, rear 4 ft. • 3 ft. 10 1/2 ins

Wheel type Rudge-Whitworth
Tyre size 5.50 x 15 (5.0 x 15 F, 6.0 x 15 R)
__

At base of Pg. 5: in '49/'50, the wheelbase was measured 2420 mm and the front and rear track as 1255 and 1200 mm respectively

Those figures correspond with at least the 159 S.

 

They have quite extensive documentation. There are the original 1:5th scale blueprints for the chassis (dated 5.6.46) and full-size (1:1) blueprints for the engine (dated 5.8.46). In 1947 Cavara did a cut-away drawing of the engine. There are also quite a few photos of the semi-completed and completed 125 as well as photos of the engine.
Nathan