1985 400i 5 spd / Long overdue / 12k Service

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So probably for this application the 6pt? I mostly have 12 pt sockets with just a few 6pt.

 

If you need a 6-point socket to turn the crankshaft = you have bigger problems

The 6-point socket might have a larger OD, but either is fine if the OD fits.

 

If you do use a non ratcheting bar, better to use a 12 point socket as it allows a better positioning in the bay, at the expense of grip (a 6 point socket has 50% more surface area against the "6 point" nut).

12 points for me. 6 points is for the impact wrench.

 

Good day Paul,

The following shop looks to make the label, but with the printed part number used on the modules used on Boxers:

https://kilimanjarodesigns.com/product/19a-boxer-dinoplex-sticker/

They have have other similar labels and/or maybe a good resource to have some made specific to your car's needs?

Cheers,

Sam

 

Paul's sticker is quite puzzling : have you seen the rev limit module? 7800rpm ?

Based on dinoplex.org this module was installed on the Countach. Just curious as to how it ended-up in the 400i engine bay?

 

Good day Raemin,

If I were to guess... perhaps the original died some time ago and a shop simply used what they could find. Now, whether the unit worked or not is uknown, but certainly the rev limiter would not have been any help. However, given the car and its current condition I suspect that past owners/drivers did not push the rev limit.

Cheers,

Sam

 

This could be harder than what it seems if they also ditched the original coil, as it was unique to this ignition system.

Theere is a trove of information on dinoplex.org, that is definitively worth reading.

 

As previously said, the system does require a 3 terminal coil that was very specific to this ignition. As it was one of the first high power ignition module, it was still breaking the "ground" of the coil (like old-school breaker point). In order to avoid huge current spike flowing back to the battery, they had to separate the primary and secondary windings of the coil, so made two negative terminal (one for the battery and one for the ignition module). Later capacitive discharge module took another approach and unlike breaker point are breaking the positive side of the winding, which can make it do without separating the windings grounds.

I personally really like the original setup, and consider this early capacitive ignition part of the history of the car. By the way it is just as powerful as an MSD ignition. Unfortunately if someone has messed-up with yours, chances are that the original cabling & coil were trashed.

If you just want the period correct setup, the only supplier I've found is Permatune (https://permatune.com/portfolio/ferrari-512-bb-ignition-module-high-performance-oem-coil/).

 

Good day Paul,

Understood. Before you go too much further, one would need to confirm if your car/model had the rev limiter or not. If not, then your options are better in terms of finding a original unit (working or not)... and then you would not need to recreate the rev limter specific label.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Good day Raemin,

Since Paul already has a MSD on his car, then either the coil was replaced or was reused. Secondly, the original units are not the same as MSD or other modern units. The energy output "may" be the same, but certainly the multi-spark output at low RPMs would not be present on the original units. Thirdly, the original units are around 40 or more years old and so a number of internal electrical and electronic components are well past their best before date... and will be prone to failure at some point. Fourthly, the original Marelli units had a number of design weaknesses that made them failure prone. However, given when these were designed they did quite well given the technologies available at the time. There are a number of firms that retrofit the original cases with modern electronics... I, do, for one and so you can have modern electronics in the same housing and so it looks original (https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/1979-512bb-dinoplex-upgrade-plug-and-play.631311/#post-147550164). Some like mine, even include the original tone or whine generator and so when running it even sounds like an original unit (I have even recreated an OEM replacement 6-pin factory connector as well). Another benefit of some retrofit units is if they should fail, it is trivial to replace the modern internal electronics for a reasonable sum... unlike having to spend well over $1K or more on a used original unit if you can fine one... and may or may not be working... andif it is working, for how long?

As for Pertronix... my experience has not been positive. Their latest designs are not well suited for the Ferrari's distributor pickup sensor along with being susceptible to electrical noise (e.g. false triggers, etc). When I contacted Pertronix with a few questions, the first support person I called was complete indifferent to my questions and could seemingly care less about them. it was like"too bad" for you, buy something else. When I called again another support person was helpful, but simply did not know the answer to my questions and suggested I call another person. I called the other person multiple times and never heard back. Given my recent experiences I would not consider Pertronix... however, YMMV.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Disapointing news about the Pertronix. The link I posted was for Permatune (not Pertronix). What's interesting in the design is that this is a modern circuity that "breaks" the negative side of the coil so fully compatible with the original design.

Given that the OP already had an MSD I thought that the next logical step would be the expensive Permatune: the reliable MSD 6 (presumably the one in his car) does not fit in the original dinoplex casing, the MSD "street fire" does fit but is less reliable (so would be a downgrade compared to his current setup), and in any case the two solution do require to modify the harness.

On the very early 400i you could re-use some of the cabling, as the positive of the dinoplex and the positive of the coil are separate , whereas on the later this is a common cable. So, on the early cars one of these positives can be "repurposed" to carry the signal (all you have to do is "butcher" the connectors). On later cars, connectors and harness (which is burried in the fender) do have to be modified.

I suspect the OP harness was already significantly modified during the MSD upgrade, hence my initial comment "this could be harder than it seems".

 

Good day Raemin,

My apologies for bringing up Pertronix... Permatune and Petronix are certainly different, given my relatively recent experiences with Pertronix they were obviously on my mind...

On virtually all retrofits, some level of wiring change will be needed at the original 6-pin connector. That said, the wiring change, if done properly, will not be noticed unless one was to compare the new wiring to the original wiring diagram. Secondly, all modern ignitions will require more energy than what the original wires can efficiently provide. Although the wires feeding the original module do provide power/energy, they are small and their lengths are long. The result is that these wires have large inductance which limits how quickly the new module can receive their required high current demand spikes. This can affect the module's operation and so one can experience problems or erratic operation with modern units. The moral of the story... larger wires are needed along with the shortest path to the energy source.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Good day Paul,

I suspect not so much snickering, but rather the level of grappa and/or vino that "assisted" the designer in the process... you gotta love those that never things about servicing their designs...

Given your experience, I suspect I will need to create or modify an appropriate wrench when I get to this area... argh...

Cheers,

Sam

 

Many thanks for posting these providers of services that will be needed on every 400i. Invaluable info