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1995 456 GT Windows fix

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by oss117, Nov 9, 2006.

  1. oss117

    oss117 F1 Rookie

    Jan 26, 2006
    4,042
    Plantation, Florida
    Full Name:
    Alfredo
    Hello everyone,
    For those who may be interested, I am happy to report the windows of my car have now been adjusted to an "as good as new" condition.
    I have been referred to a shop in Naples, Fl. that has come up with a proprietary recipe to cure this common problem on the early 456s.
    The repair work consisted of fixing what amounts to be a design problem with the window regulators (without replacing them), adjusting the tracks for the glass windows, adjusting the doors, so they line up perfectly with the body and finally replacing the door seals with new ones.
    The glass windows do not have any fore and aft movements anymore, they fit snugly into the top section of the door seals and the back edge of the glass fits nice and tight against the rubber, without the need to "fatten" the seal, by inserting a vacuum hose under it (or any other similar high-tech solution), in order to achieve the contact with the glass.
    The new set of seals is not inexpensive, but it is worth the money, IMO, as the design is improved over the old one and it is effective.
    I will be happy to provide more details to anyone that may be interested.
    Saluti,
     
  2. t024484

    t024484 Karting

    Nov 9, 2006
    171
    Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Hans A. Polak
    I would be most interested to have some more details like pictures or whatever.
     
  3. CrazyEnzo

    CrazyEnzo Formula Junior

    Jul 31, 2006
    495
    CANADA
    Full Name:
    Mark
    once u get them fixed becarefull with them, the window normally just get messed up again over time. that is what happened to my friends
     
  4. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Jan 5, 2002
    18,548
    Portland, Oregon
    Full Name:
    Don
    Mine have the factory fix (done 4 years ago), and last weekend I drove through about 200 miles of serious rain. Not a drop leaked in.

    So if it's done right, the factory fix is fine.
     
  5. Mr Mezzanotte

    Mr Mezzanotte Formula Junior

    Aug 22, 2006
    601
    UK
    yes please, give us some pictures please!
     
  6. oss117

    oss117 F1 Rookie

    Jan 26, 2006
    4,042
    Plantation, Florida
    Full Name:
    Alfredo
    Hello,
    Unfortunately I do not have pictures of the regulators being worked on, as I suppose the shop is considering the work it does as proprietary.
    However, the regulators do not need to get replaced if the mechanic who works on them understand why they fail.
    The Achilles Heel is the aluminum pin at the center of the mechanism.
    It is pressed in originally, but over time the torque of the motor causes it to become slack and then the whole movement becomes sloppy.
    A new regulator will be tight, but since the design is the same, over time it will become slack eventually.
    The solution is to replace the aluminum pin with a steel one that needs to be welded in, so it will never become deformed or sloppy.
    The window tracks also need adjustment, so that there is no fore and aft movement when the glass goes up.
    Also very important is to have the glass adjusted so that the trailing edge overlaps the door seal by some 10 millimeters or so.
    If you are down to only 5 or 6 millimeters of overlap, you are bound to have leaks.
    The fact that some dealers are very good and capable, while others are not and could not care less, is the most upsetting part of the whole Ferrari ownership experience, IMO.
    I am one of those owners who need to rely on the privateers and it may very well be a blessing in disguise........
    I will try to post some pictures in the next few days.
    Saluti,
     
  7. GTB4NART

    GTB4NART Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2004
    421
    It is important to make sure to let the window "burp" down to clear the rubber channel before actually opening the door. This is why passenger windows in 456s are always the biggest problem. Passengers just open the door quickly and the window catches on the trim and that evenutally makes them worsen. The same system is on my Porsche 996. On the Porsche or the FCar, I always open the door for my wife or kids.

     
  8. oss117

    oss117 F1 Rookie

    Jan 26, 2006
    4,042
    Plantation, Florida
    Full Name:
    Alfredo
    Hello Don,
    In reply to your statement, when I purchased the car, the selling dealer was supposed to carry out the "window fix", but instead it did the patch up fix !!
    When I contacted FNA, to find out what the "fix" consisted of, I got practically nothing.
    Not a list of problem areas to look into, not a list of parts to order and no help whatsoever in pressuring the dealer to honor the work they did so poorly.
    Not a confidence building attitude towards the purchase of another Ferrari....
    Saluti,
     
  9. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Jan 5, 2002
    18,548
    Portland, Oregon
    Full Name:
    Don
    I have the invoice from Ferrari of Seattle, although it's not handy at the moment. I believe I've posted it before, however.

    I'm pretty sure it included new (larger) rear quarter windows, as well as new seals and new regulators. It was a $9k bill (paid for by FNA).

    Also, not all dealers were authorized to do the fix. My dealer (Ron Tonkin) was not authorized, and had to ship the car to Ferrari of Seattle. So it was a big deal.

     
  10. alberto

    alberto Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2001
    2,377
    San Diego
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    Alberto

    Reviving an oldie but goodie.

    Alfredo, I was hoping you could post the name and contact information for the shop that did this repair for you.

    The pin you refer to in your post, is it the pin that holds the helicoidal spring (see http://www.ricambiamerica.com/parts_catalogs.php?V=diag&I=855, reference 8). Do you know precisely what was done? Did they remove the spring, remove the aluminum pin and then weld a steel pin and recoil the spring around the new steel pin? Was the new seal made by this outfit or are they just the normal Ferrari seal? Was the welding of the pin the only "construction" aspect to this repair (i.e., all of the other stuff was to carefully adjusting everything to get it to work, plus the new seal)?

    If you could post pictures of the repair that would be a huge help as well.

    Thank you very much in advance for any additional help you can provide.

    Alberto
     
  11. oss117

    oss117 F1 Rookie

    Jan 26, 2006
    4,042
    Plantation, Florida
    Full Name:
    Alfredo
    #11 oss117, Sep 3, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hello Alberto,
    Well, the exploded drawing is not clear enough and the parts manual I have does not show that much detail of the lifting mechanism for the window, so i cannot confirm the exact part number to you.
    Anyway, the original pin is made of aluminum, it is star shaped (it is a spline actually) and it is pressed into its location when they assemble the lifting mechanism.
    With time the aluminum gets twisted by the torque of the electric motor and becomes slack.
    The fix consists of taking the lifting mechanism apart, replace the aluminum pin with one in stainless steel that is TIG welded in place and reassemble the lifting gear with all its original parts.
    The correct positioning of the glass within the guides and the adjustment of the guides are another pain in the neck to do it properly.
    On my car I did change also the door seals and adjusted the doors to close perfectly flush with the body.
    The door seal that meets the trailing edge of the window needs to be checked carefully and in some cases it needs to be beefed up internally in order to achieve a good contact against the glass.
    Two years and going and the car is perfectly tight even under under the infamous Florida downpours.
    The shop that did it for me is called Formula 1 Imports and Exotics and they are located in Naples, Florida.
    Tel. (239) 430 2206 Jason is the contact and Erik is the technician.
    I would rate Erik as one of the best in the business.
    I have attached some pictures for you: I hope this helps.
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  12. alberto

    alberto Formula 3
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    Aug 25, 2001
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    Alberto
    Wow, I never thought I'd say this, but I have window envy. That looks like a perfect fit.

    Thanks for the additional information and thank you very much for the response. I will call them and go from there.

    Alberto
     
  13. Mr Mezzanotte

    Mr Mezzanotte Formula Junior

    Aug 22, 2006
    601
    UK
    #13 Mr Mezzanotte, Sep 5, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  14. oss117

    oss117 F1 Rookie

    Jan 26, 2006
    4,042
    Plantation, Florida
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    Alfredo
    The spline is behind the spring that you see coiled there.
    Again, the lifting mechanism has to come apart to remove it and replace it.
     
  15. alberto

    alberto Formula 3
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    Aug 25, 2001
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    Excellent, I had surmized that it was where the spring was wound.

    Alberto
     
  16. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran

    Dec 15, 2006
    6,685
    #16 SonomaRik, Sep 8, 2008
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2008
    Not only is your car like mine, color combo, but you seem to have done us all the big favor: seems you are saying it is behind that spring, which sounds tough..did you have to remove the entire mech. or just the spring???.

    AND is the stainless part you got readily available? I'll bet that Ricambi part is Aluminum

    Rik
     
  17. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran

    Dec 15, 2006
    6,685
    PS:

    This probably reaffirms the thought that the driver's side window is mostly the problem in that it gets used the most and wears that pin more.

    I would like to get those pins....

    DID YOUR dealer make or acquire those pins and in either case: Can we acquire who that dealer is to get the pins??!!!!

    thanks
    rik
     
  18. oss117

    oss117 F1 Rookie

    Jan 26, 2006
    4,042
    Plantation, Florida
    Full Name:
    Alfredo
    Rick, the lifting mechanism needs to be taken apart, the aluminum spline must be pushed out and the new s/s pin inserted.
    The aluminum spline is pressed-in, so it conforms with the surrounding metal, while the new s/s pin must be welded in.
    The pin is not and original part, so it must be fabricated or adapted from some other donor part.
    The problem #1 is that the aluminum pin is not strong enough to withstand the torque of the electric motor.
    Problem #2 is that the window guides and relative adjusting system are a bit weak and tend to become loose if not handled with care.
    I heard that in some case they need to be reinforced or welded back in place.
    Also people (i.e. valet parking attendants are a good example) tend to grab the doors by the glass, thus adding to the abuse.
     
  19. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran

    Dec 15, 2006
    6,685
    Great advice.

    I am guessing that while I'm in there, and I'm going to pic/document the H#ll out of the process like you, that I will try to see about reinforcing those weak tracks.

    The older Mondials had the same problem.

    Thanks for this, I'll just bet it will become the sticky of the future in 456 window-wonder-works.
     
  20. alberto

    alberto Formula 3
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    Aug 25, 2001
    2,377
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    Alberto
    I spoke with the guys at F1. If you take the window regulator off the car and ship it to them, they quoted me $180 to conduct the repair. They machine the piece that they replace and weld. They offered to sell the part alone to me for $30. However, they were reticent to explain the entire repair so I'm not sure that I would take that route as it would be an experiment (whereas they know what to do). Even at $180 plus shipping, plus your time to take the thing out and box it, it sounds like a fair price to me. They told me they have never had one come back after they had effected the repair, so it appears to be a permanent fix.

    Alberto
     
  21. alberto

    alberto Formula 3
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    Aug 25, 2001
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    Alberto
    Thought I'd provide an update.

    I recently received and just reinstalled the fixed regulator from the guys at F1 Imports 7 Exotics in Naples, FL. The cost of the repair was $180 plus about $100 roundtrip shipping (UPS ground shipping both ways from CA to FL, a rip off, but that's the cheapest I could find and still have it back within a couple of weeks), plus my labor to remove and reinstall.

    The guys at F1 took all of half a day to make the fix and send it back to me. They were great.

    Before, the passenger's window exhibited about a 2 cm gap to the window rubber surround and was closing too high in the frame, causing the upper rubber lip of the rubber surround to bow out. All issues have been corrected with the solution implemented by the F1 guys and a little fiddling with the adjustment of the window regulator during reinstallation. The result is a prefectly flush window.

    This appears to me to be a definitive solution to the window separation problem and a reasonably cheap one at that, specially if you do it yourself, compared to the Ferrari Dealership solution. If you have F1 repair the regulator, any decent shop should be able to remove the regulator and reinstall for the cost of only a few hours labor.
     
  22. lesthom

    lesthom Rookie

    Jun 1, 2010
    2
    hi guys, this is my first post so here goes,my name is les thomson,from glasgow scotland,having followed avidley all the posts reguarding 456gt window regulators and various fixes,i took the leap and sent the regulators to f1 imports, the guys were great,quick,and very very helpfull with reguarding refit and adjustment,long story short,the jobs a good one,first time in 6years no wind noise,water tight no leeks,as yet? all thanks to all you guys and your site,a gold mine,and i realise that to get so much out you need to put some back,with that in mind more posts to follow along with photos,by the way, she is a glorious lemans blue,silver grey interiour,6speed,dose exactley what it says on the tin,i love it to bits,got her with 49k, now at 61k,for my money she is the dogs,i love my audi s8,so much so im on my third,my 928gts is so much fun but not top dog in this companey,so long live ferrari,and lets hope for a lottery win, got my eye on a ff,f12berineleta,daytona,599,288gto,GTO,
     
  23. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran

    Dec 15, 2006
    6,685
    Well, just acquired a used Lefthand window mechanism with motor [motor not needed but whatever].

    I will be taking out the old glass and window mechanism sometime next week.

    Has anyone done this?

    IF so THEN
    removing the glass is it straight fwd?
    any other hints on replacing the mechanism, like in down position or whatver.

    I cannot truly find the adjustment points on the diagrams. any help there would be appreciated.
     
  24. number46

    number46 Karting

    Jun 21, 2005
    110
    London
    I have done both sides on my 94 456 GT. It is not very difficult, but time consuming and annoying to do!! Much like the rear shocks the windows on these cars are a bi-annual service item !!!
    The glass is big and heavy, so a few blocks of wood in the door are useful to support it whilst you un-bolt the mechanism from the glass. You need the window about 2/3rds down to get to the capscrews on the top scissor rail that hold the glass to the mechanism. Be VERY careful when you re-attach the glass not to twist it as it can shatter ( a loud big and covering you in glass shards) causing you great pain to the wallet!! The lower rear of the scissor has the adjustment via two 10mm nuts holding the bottom scissor slider to the frame, it is not really upto the job but by moving these you can make the glass move back and up to try to get the best overlap on the seal rubber( you need about a 8-10mm overlap on rear seal rubber). If you search on here there is some info on fitting a 550 window that helps with the line-up procedue. It can be useful to put two bits of masking tape on the glass top edge and mark with a pen to try and get the glass 'square' in the top rubber seal. unfortunately no matter how much you adjust it it is very hard to get a long term good seal as the scissor mechanism is too flexible and wear in it causes the windows to move over time.
     
  25. alberto

    alberto Formula 3
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    Aug 25, 2001
    2,377
    San Diego
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    Alberto
    It's been a while, but it was really pretty straight forward. I put towels on the bottom of the door so the glass wouldn't sit on the metal bottom of the door. You just have to be a little patient. Don't force anything and you'll be ok.
     

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