2010 Ferrari California Brakes

I don't know the answer to your question, but 95K miles?!? Wow! That's a million miles in the Ferrari world. Congrats!
T

 

There is/was a company called RacingBrake offering conversion kits for the 458 as well as other cars -- I think they were banned for not being a paid sponsor -- but there is some discussion over on the 458 forum and he seemed to indicate that what they do for the 458 would also fit the California. He had kits to convert to iron rotors, but also said that the Brembo CCM brakes from the Corvette ZR1 can be adapted at a fraction of the cost of OEM. Try searching for Corvette carbon on that forum.

 

Ferrari charges what they charge because in they're analysis they do better with full dollar service from folk who can just hand them the keys than they would offering value alternatives for the secondary market. I paid $3500 to replace my rear 599 shocks with the same parts with an indy in the same town as my Ferrari dealer who demanded $13,500. When I bought my Cali, I priced a replacement transmission at the dealer just as food for thought and they wanted $30,000. Standing there, I checked eBay and it was $15,000. They're not alone. The percentage difference with Porsche is about the same. Caveat emptor.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using FerrariChat.com mobile app

 

You can buy original new replacements for far less from reputable suppliers like Scuderia USA and Ricambi America.

BTW, the rotors should not wear out from normal driving. One thing most drivers do not realize with these cars is that you should refrain from driving in AUTO, COMFORT mode. In this mode, the car aggressively uses the traction control system for brake-steering, whereby the inside brakes are applied to help steer the car around a corner. This is made worse if you are going quickly around a corner.

Try to only drive in MANUAL, SPORT mode. This is well-known amongst experienced Ferrari owners.

Finally, if you use these cars as DDs, realize that professional appraisers will also appraise them as "utilitarian use" vehicles. To make a DD worthwhile, one has to ignore resale or trade-in value and drive them until they no longer work, because you are essentially driving them to the ground, just like business assets that are fully-depreciated over time. This can make great sense if you live and drive to work, do your shopping in a very good driving location, but not in a boring or traffic jam location.

DD vehicles also incur significantly higher insurance rates, for obvious reasons. It's much lower risk if the vehicle is a seasonal recreational vehicle which is never stored outside your home and driven with low or moderate yearly mileage.

 

Yeah, I'm with you. With the miles piling up on my Cali, I can't imagine the trade in value is worth much. Better to keep driving and enjoying. Heck, I wonder how much I further devalued it this morning with another 200 km jaunt!
T

 

Wow, I’d have thought the rotors would be a bit more durable especially when the car isn’t tracked or if anything perhaps only the front rotors would need replaced and not all 4.

Brakes aren’t that difficult to change yourself, and you could save a significant amount doing what 4th mentioned and buying from Ricambi or the like. Sometimes it pays to shop around between the suppliers too. But no matter what the rotors are going to be expensive.

Going with steel, while a good idea for the pocket book, could change the driving characteristics of the car significantly due to added weight and with the nannies could cause rapid wear further eliminating any savings from swapping.

I too have read that the 458 and California brakes are the same but have not checked to see if this is intact the case. If there really is a conversion involving corvette brakes and rotors it might be more worthwhile to look into that possibility.

Congrats on the enjoyment you have gotten out of your California! But I have to say it sure seems like you are drastically being lowballed with tradeon offeres of 35k since I’ve personally seen 2010 and 2011 California’s recently with 90k+ miles for sale at around 80k to 85k asking. Sure seems a bit drastic to lowball a trade by way more then half of what it could feasibly
Sell for. It’s also good to hear it became more reliable the more you drove it, so really good to know.

Good luck with your brake situation, hopefully you can share your solution soon and get more miles under your belt.

 

I have some real life data to add.

On my 360 modena which had steel brakes the front pads were changed at 20,000 miles and they resurfaced the rotors. At at around 40,000 I did the 2nd pad change with replaced 4 new rotors.

I put 65,000 on my 2010 Cali and the brakes were still fine So I think your rotors are still ok. To be sure your service center will weigh them. That’s a good way to tell. There is also a software algorithm which is supposed to alert you that the rotors need replacement

My 458 spider has 102.000 miles.
My front pads needed replacement at 80,000 miles. the rotors were still good.

I don’t track the car but do a lot of high speed driving with very few traffic stops and very little traffic. So my driving experience is a unique daily drive and maybe easier on the brakes.

Obviously measuring the pads is easy to do.
An experienced mechanic can determine if your rotors are worn out. The carbon is lost which results in a lighter weight and also visible changes on the rotors’s friction surfaces.

And yes, daily driving the car is a perfectly wonderful way to enjoy your Ferrari.

If you do your brakes, I think you have an easier car to sell and may just end up driving her a little more

If you just need new pads, that’s quite a bit less than 40,000

 

Greedy people see owners of FCars as "cookie jars", especially if the car owners cannot verify technical issues and costs. I once shopped around for a new furnace, and almost gave up on getting more quotations after #6. The 7th one turned out to be honest and half the price of the others, which were all over-spec'd for my home at the time. The guy did a perfect job.

I also once asked a landscape contractor who had worked for me before at reasonable prices why he suddenly quoted me 2x what reputable landscape architects were quoting me for another project. He said: "because you could afford it". At least that part was honest.

 

Care to share where you got this information?

 

In every modern Ferrari I’ve ever driven you can hear the brakes working more in auto/what ever mode is the most cushy. Honestly it really spritzed me how much the 488 automatically applied the breaks in normal driving (evidenced by the CCB brake squeaking for different wheels, most notable with the top down). I would assume the best mode for no xtra brake nannies would be cst off but then you lose a lot of other driver aides as well possibly resulting in total vehicle loss and or death.

 

You can find this information regarding how traction control systems (ASR) work, if you search. Here's one reference you will find:

"...When the traction control computer (often incorporated into another control unit, such as the ABS module) detects one or more driven wheels spinning significantly faster than another, it invokes the ABS electronic control unit to apply brake friction to wheels spinning with lessened traction...."
​

It is not the same as "active" brake-steer per se, what car manufacturers have added on more recent "hyperperformance" cars, because it is only activated when there is slippage as opposed to the latter, which is purposely activated to increase the yaw rate. However, the cornering effect of both is arguably, in essence, brake-steer.

IMO, I would just drive these cars in MANUAL SPORT mode as they seem to be designed to operate optimally in those settings.

 

And you're saying that in Manual and Sport mode, the brakes are no longer used as a driver aid?

 

No, that's what you are saying. What I wrote was actually:

"...you should refrain from driving in AUTO, COMFORT mode. In this mode, the car aggressively uses the traction control system for brake-steering, whereby the inside brakes are applied to help steer the car around a corner. This is made worse if you are going quickly around a corner.

Try to only drive in MANUAL, SPORT mode..."

AND THEN

"...IMO, I would just drive these cars in MANUAL SPORT mode as they seem to be designed to operate optimally in those settings..."
​

 

I'm not saying that at all. I have never heard that driving a California in Auto or Comfort wears out brakes more quickly than Manual and Sport, and I'd like to know if they "seem to be designed" this way, or if you have information that they are designed this way, and that, in fact, brake wear is increased due to driving mode.

 

It’s a given fact that depending on driving mode that the brakes will wear faster especially in comfort mode since comfort is designed to give the occupants the smoothest ride possible. Since drivers aids and stability controls use the brake system, the more the brakes are applied the more wear there is. You can do real world testing to see and hear how much more brakes are applied in the different modes. I’m not sure if auto vs manual would impact the brakes much but I do know it certainly does impact acceleration performance to a significantly noticeable degree.

I think what 4th said and how he said it hits the nail on the head, the combo he describes does in fact appear to be optimal settings for performance driving, but for wife to the mall driving auto/comfort would be the optimal setting. Honestly the only setting I’m aware of the disables the brake assistance, and even then it is theorized some still occurs, is the cst off mode, which unless you are a very experienced driver and have a lot of experience in the car you are driving is the mother of all bad ideas and should be mostly avoided. Case in point a guy rented a 458 spider from the rental company I rent from, had the car a half an hour and decided to “see what the car will do with it off” and planted the car into a wall.

 

That's fine. Most people also don't know this.

That's exactly why I'm repeating this lesser-known fact for readers like yourself. At one time, I also didn't know this and I appreciated the efforts of other people who informed me of it. They did me and others a favour. So I'm paying the favour forward, for other people like yourself.

COMFORT mode is designed to accommodate casual driving, meaning it requires less attention from the driver when you drive in COMFORT mode and it assumes conditions can be very slippery. AUTO transmission mode also lowers need for attention from the driver by relieving the driver from knowing or selecting the best gearing (optimum contact patch adhesion) for the broadest possible conditions the car is expected to operate under. It is the SAFEST MODE.

ASR "Antriebsschlupfregelung" (Bosch) is traction control and along with VDC "Vehicle Dynamics Control" (Ferrari) can use differential braking to maximize traction and vehicle dynamics when there is wheel slippage, like with the inner wheel, something which can happen when cornering fast. If these systems don't retard the inner wheel the car can spin out.

One can also design the car to retard torque delivery (kill the power) but that is very undesirable if you are just trying to go faster around a corner in a sports car and the inner drive wheel is doing dumb things. This would be the "nannies" some drivers complain about.

Ferrari marketed the Cali to novice drivers as well as drivers who are experienced, already own hypercars and are good drivers. The COMFORT mode is for the former as well as for occasions when the driver does not want to engage as much with the driving. Performance will be compromised but it is safer. Nothing is free in life and one of the penalties for safety, along with lower performance, is greater brake wear especially on the rear brakes.

OTO, these cars are really meant for average drivers to explore becoming better drivers as well as for experienced drivers who can already drive them very fast in a safe manner. That's why Ferrari provided SPORT and CST-OFF (or ESC-OFF) modes as well as MANUAL selection of gears. You are allowed to fling the car off the road if you are silly enough to ignore the purpose of the Manettino settings and road conditions. The car is designed for the driver to explore limits and as such, it is by default able to deliver its limits in a competent manner, assuming the driver is also competent.

This is why I said "...they (the Calis) seem to be designed to operate optimally in those settings...". The Cali is after all a supercar, meant to be driven fast by competent drivers. Ferrari only makes sports cars.

I trust this answers your questions. If not, you can also find a condensed version of this information in your owner's manual.

 

You come across to me as a very sensitive driver. Great sensitivity and awareness are necessary for great drivers.

FWIW, I pointed out MANUAL vs AUTO transmission mode because careful gear selection also optimizes contact patch adhesion. A good driver can feel how the tires are working and this comes from the contact patches. Putting the car in the right gear is part of setting up properly for a corner.

AUTO mode also prevents the use of engine-braking and the timing of engine-braking, which reduces the need for normal braking, lessening disruption of tire adhesion and optimizes the balancing of braking and suspension loads across all 4 contact patches. Only be selecting gears manually can you do this.

 

All very good points, and good advice to follow when driving the car hard or pushing limits. For the majority of my Ferrari, and most other exotic car driving, is generally in the Las Vegas area ( we go for many reasons but mostly because we have family in the area we visit) on vacation. When doing regular mundane driving I just leave the car in auto. When we venture up Mt. Charelston I generally switch to manual mode specifically for things you point out proper gear selection for corners and grade. Even at normal speeds manual gear selection dramatically improves the cars performance. This is also where I really notice just how much the car automatically uses the brakes at different wheels, even at legal speeds ( the CCB squeak quite a bit on rental exotics, much more then an actual owners car in most cases). The actual amount the car uses the brakes on its own really suprised me. And it also appears that the 488 does so more then the California. I also noticed a difference on different settings.

Auto mode is useful especially when just going around, but it is wise to become familiar with and use manual shifting. And as you said you will have a lot more input and control when driving the car to its limits.

Back to the op’s topic I had forgotten that you weigh the CCB rotors to know how “worn” they are. It would be interesting to know where they are at after nearly 100k miles of daily use. It would be interesting to find out how long the steel conversion lasts, especially given the topic we’ve been discussing pertaining to the automatic use of the braking system in all types of driving for driver aid. Even if you have to replace the steel units at 30k miles and the added weight doesn’t overly change the driving characteristics it might be worth the switch given the dramatically lower cost for components. Could also be replacing pads quite often too depending on all the variables.

 

I think it's extremely important to perform regular maintenance. This is the crux of the problem. I think if the OP's car had been properly maintained, he would have been warned of his accelerated brake wear issue years ago. I wondered why that didn't happen. Even with a crappy used Honda or Mazda, the service tech from even an indy would warn you of wear on your brakes well before they expire or tell you they are still doing fine. Brake inspection is probably the most important safety inspection of all.

With Ferraris, you also need to remember why you own one at all. They are not utilitarian vehicles so you only own one for the quality of that experience. If you then degrade the experience you may as well get rid of it and buy a car that you can comfortably maintain and safely enjoy. That may mean a less-expensive or a more-expensive car. Here's what I mean.

People buy Ferraris for one of several reasons: 1) they love the car/brand, or 2) they love the performance and driving experience or 3) they use it to show off their wealth. Notice I did not include utility as one of the reasons. This does not mean they don't buy them to use as DDs. Some owners do use their Ferraris as DDs but they do that because of the same 3 reasons I listed above. They don't drive their Ferraris as DDs because of utility.

Replacing original CCM brakes with iron or SS brakes is utilitarian.

So IMO, it doesn't make sense to keep the Cali if you won't at least use original spec parts. Better to get rid of it and get something you are more comfortable owning. I got rid of my wonderful old BMW because it didn't make sense to put more money into a 15-year-old DD that was going to need even more work very soon. A dealer could do those repairs at standard cost, for peanuts, and resell the car. I went shopping for a Maserati and ended up ordering a new Cali as a replacement.

 

I apologize if my post came across one-sidedly critical of you. As I pointed out, the rotors are designed to last the life of the car and the parts costs you were given are inflated. I also said proper maintenance would have provided ample warning if your brakes were wearing out prematurely. Your Ferrari dealer service advisor should have provided advice years ago on why your rotors are wearing out. You seem to say this is your first brake service.

Something is terribly wrong if this is your first brake service over the 10 years you've owned the car and you are suddenly told to replace both the pads and rotors... and be quoted inflated prices. They normally just replace the pads. At 95,000 miles your original pads should have been replaced at least twice by now and you would know the costs of pads, if not where to buy them as well as the rotors less expensively than from your dealer. If you are still on the original pads, they have been destroying your rotors.

By the way, I think they are also taking advantage of you grossly with a "$35(k)" trade in value. Even an insurance write-off parts salvage car would fetch way more. There's apparently nothing wrong with your car. Presenting a huge brake service bill would certainly push some car owners to buy a new car instead of wasting more money to service a $35k old car. Is a 10 year old Cali with no issues after 95k miles worth $35k even if it needs new brakes? I'd shop for another dealer.