Playing their cards nicely like not going public with all the problems they had with the Renault engines. Red Bull didn't have a choice, so why slagging off their engine Partner at every occasion? Did they think that by shouting they would get more result? I think they just put Renault people's back up and the Relationship soured. In an interview Abiteboul dropped that since 2016, he wasn't taking any notice of what Red Bull said. I think Renault should have stopped supplying Red Bull without warning, and take it from there. Sometimes, you have to meet the brutality of language, with some decisive action.
Red Bull should have been even more grateful to Renault for allowing them to stay in F1 !!! It looks like Red Bull found themselves cornered because they couldn't get what they wanted, like a reliable Mercedes engine, so out of spite, they blamed Renault for it.
Do you honestly think FIA/F1 would allow Red Bull to leave because they couldn't get an engine? Frankly if Red Bull sweated it out a bit longer before signing a deal with Renault there's a strong chance they'd end with a Ferrari/Mercedes engine from ''the hat'' anyways.
This needs to change! - https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/142818/mercedes-corner-speed-nullifying-ferrari-advantage Mercedes Formula 1 team boss Toto Wolff found it surprising that his drivers were able to nullify Ferrari's straightline speed advantage so effectively in the Chinese Grand Prix. After Ferrari's pace in Bahrain, where it was fastest but failed to win due to Charles Leclerc's late mechanical problem, the Chinese round was dominated by talk of its top-speed edge and Mercedes' fears it would be difficult to catch up if Ferrari's superiority was on the engine side. But whatever advantage Ferrari was finding in a straightline at Shanghai did not prove decisive, as Mercedes swept to a front-row lockout in qualifying and one-two in the race. Asked if he was surprised by Ferrari's performance, Wolff said: "Yes, I believed their straightline advantage, especially in the opening laps, would be a danger for us. And when DRS was enabled, even more." He suggested that Mercedes had a corner speed edge that was allowing it to counteract Ferrari's straightline pace. "We didn't see them coming anywhere near so I think our exit onto the main straight out of Turn 13 was very good," Wolff continued. "We were able to pull a little gap there, so they were never close enough. "But it came as a surprise." Ex-Mercedes driver Nico Rosberg said after the grand prix that Ferrari's car was "in the wrong place" aerodynamically and needed "a lot of work" to be fixed. Wolff admitted the balance between downforce and drag was tough to strike, but even though Ferrari tried to add more rear wing over the weekend he believes its "straightline performance is still very strong". Image Unavailable, Please Login "In the race it was not as strong as in qualifying, but still impressive," said Wolff. "With every team you need to get the balance right between the drag power and downforce level. "You want a draggy car to be fast through the corners, but equally not to lose time on the straights. "And getting that balance right is very difficult." Wolff's Ferrari counterpart Mattia Binotto suggested after the race that the difference in straightline speed was not as significant as was being made out. That followed Charles Leclerc saying earlier in the weekend that Mercedes was "much closer than what they try to make people think". "If you look at the speed of Mercedes this weekend, I thought they were very strong as well," said team principal Binotto. "So maybe we should ask them how they are so good this weekend. "But I don't think there is much on the straights between us and the others." Ferrari has been tipped by some to strike back at the next race in Azerbaijan, because of its ultra-long flat-out run from the end of the final sector to the first corner. But Binotto pointed out that the rest of the Baku lap is a slow-speed city circuit. "Baku is a circuit where you've got a different aero configuration," he said. "It's not only the straight in Baku, it's a lot of corners, it's a city circuit and very difficult in that respect." Share this article on
No good being the fastest on the straights if you can’t maintain a high speed through the twisties..... you will never catch up enough to get a run at them down the straights. Our car has a fundamental downforce issue that stalls our performance through all but the most sweeping corners, and of course, Mercedes did a lot of sandbagging around its performances in testing which means that many are still expecting Ferrari to top timesheets like they did in testing, but they had merely closed some of the gap to Mercedes from the end of last year, and strengthened against all but red bull to flatter themselves in testing.
Well, actually they thought they had a Mercedes engine, and this is why they gave Renault the boot. That is, until they found that actually, they didn't have a valid agreement with Mercedes, and had to beg Renault on their knees to get some engine at all; which they badged "TAG" not to eat crow as much as they should. Sorry Bas, Renault might have under-delivered, but I don't have any love left for Red Bull and Helmut Marko since that tragi-comic situation. Basic principle of business is that you don't badmouth powerful companies or people. As a traditonalist, I do hold Hoand in high esteem for their history in racing, so I wish Honda the best, and hope they will win very soon. As for Red Bull, I don't care much; but Mr Newey will find something I am sure. As for Marko, I don't care at all. Rgds
Don't get me wrong, like you I care very little for Helmut. But the rest of the Red Bull team I do like quite a bit. To me they're a bit like a well organized Hesketh. Red bull does an awful lot for F1 through both their teams...how many opportunities have they given young drivers, engineers etc to show what they can do? And not just in F1, junior ranks also. Giving Horner the job of team principal when they did was quite a move, I think he was half the age of the next youngest team manager at the time! They're a breath of fresh air over the ever more corporate F1 teams, although with a bit of stench mixed in from both Helmut and Mateschitz every now and again saying he'll pull out of the sport. Horner has a difficult job managing both Helmut, Mateschitz, young drivers who tend not to be so mentally mature yet and striking French engines. Not to mention ever higher offers for Newey to work for rival teams. I think he's done very well. The fact of the matter remains that if Renault delivered at least a half decent engine they wouldn't be in this mess. I'm pretty convinced that a more diplomatic approach was held for quite a while before the pot finally boiled over. Frankly I'd have respected them all much less if they just sat there and shrugged their shoulders when another Renault engine lynched itself half a grand prix into it's life.
Correct. Red Bull doesn't understand what means partnership. With insight, Renault should have insisted on a confidentiality clause or a gagging order, when they resumed supply. Instead, they suffered a vicious campaign of villification from Marko and else at RB. I have no love lost for Red Bull either; for me, they have demonstrated they are the nasty team.
I basically agree, but they have also demonstrated that their youthful approach is lacking maturity (well, that's logical and makes sense, isn't it?) in not knowing how to face their misfortunes gracefully, which is a question of elegance and class. As Kipling said: If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same; Etc. And as discussed with William in another thread, I suppose (I suppose only, I don't have any proof) it might have been difficult for them to rely on the "level of commitment" at Renault, which seems to vary quite a lot and is difficult to assess. Again, I do hope that they win a grand Prix this year, but more for Honda that for R.B; I would however be sad to see them go. Rgds
Nobody wanted to supply red bull because they knew if they didn't win they'd blame the engine and if they won they'd praise the chassis, just like they spent 4 years doing with Renault.
Ironically...I think the best thing that could’ve happened to F1 would’ve been for RedBull to not have had an engine going into the season. Perhaps that would’ve forced F1 to address these issues and perhaps allow an alternative formula through additional makers.
Yes, I agree entirely. Sometimes a painful and deep crisis unlock new solutions. (Like in business and politics, BTW) In fact, in the Red Bull engine saga, Renault's weakness was to solve the FIA's problem.
Bas and William. Spirited debate is great, sniping is not. Do you guys get the difference? You started out having a spirited debate, but it devolved into the two of you sniping at each other, which is no good. That's the stuff that drives others out of this forum. That's the stuff we all ned to learn to dial back a bit. (Hence my comparison between spirited and sniping, right?) This time it's not a FERRARI IS WONDERFUL everyone else stinks debate, so at least that's an improvement. Keep it polite. Failure to do so will result in thread bans. And as long as I'm doling out free advice . . . nah, I'll shut up now. D
******** and you know it. Neither Ferrari or Mercedes where willing to supply because there was a very strong possibility of them being beaten by their customer team. What evidence is there that the Renault was a good engine? Red Bull was (by a MASSIVE margin I might add) far ahead of any of the other Renault powered cars, also the factory team, so either that makes their aero/chassis very good or for some reason Renault would give a customer better engines? Doesn't add up does it. Even with visually smaller wings the Red Bull was lacking top speed to any other non-renault (or Honda at the time) powered car. The engine was a dog and rightly blamed for it's problem.
A good point. the biggest problem lies with the most complicated of the systems. I'm fine with a (twin) turbo V6 and a basic KERS system like we had before (hell even one with automated maps for deploy i.e. a race map that deploys the battery slowly vs a qualifying map that drains the battery in a lap or so). I'm convinced by simplifying the current engine formula by keeping the V6, slap a pair of conventional turbos on attached to a basic KERS system is a good compromise for 2021. It would reduce the gap between the engines, far less (expensive) stuff to go wrong and overall be better for all involved. A pair of conventional turbos will cost no more than 10 grand total, keep the v6 rev limited (the bottom end rarely goes wrong on these cars, if ever). Allow turbos to be used for an entire weekend that's it, KERS and rest of the engine 5 races. A disused engine can easily be swapped in for practice sessions btw to log additional miles.
I think that current agreements mandate that if a team doesn´t get an engine deal someone is obliged to supply them, so Red Bull never was in danger of ending without engines. The big difference is that Red Bull didn´t want a Renault or a Honda engine: they wanted the good ones. I say, and that´s my personal opinion: **** you, Dieter Mateschitz, **** you, Christian Horner, **** you Helmut Marko and **** you Adrian Newey. They have one of the biggest budgets in Formula 1 and the cost of customer engines is limited, so they would get the same engine than their rivals at a bargain price. They´d have more budget for the chassis and they´ll appear as smart-asses again: "hey, we´re beating with your own engine, moron, we´re the best". You know the sayin`: put your money were your mouth is. I´d like to see where they would be if they had to cope with Honda´s bills.
Until and unless the FIA and F1 compel engine manufacturers to accept orders from any bona fide F1 constructor, and provide them power units that are identical, across the board, only the teams owned by the manufacturers will win WCCs and WDCs. Simply take orders in Sept (or as agreed) of the year for delivery the following year. Surely they can figure out delivery schedules that take into account upgrades etc. Let the FIA hold the engines in a secure location and deliver them directly to the teams, as needed. If Williams contracts with Mercedes, they get the same power units as Merc. Same goes for Hass, Alfa, and Ferrari. Renault and Honda should also have to send their power units to the FIA warehouse.
One of the problems in F1, is that some teams build their engines, and other don't. Once upon a time, teams use to ALL make their own engines; Maserati, Vanwall, Gordini, Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, BRM, etc... Later, and for many years, the "garagists" were able to outsource their engines from specialists like Coventry-Climax, Cosworth, HART, Judd and so on. With the complexity in F1 now, no independent engine builder could compete against the manufacturers, and we are left with only 4 of them. The FIA mandate constructors to supply independent teams, and at a capped cost. This is what's wrong with the system; some manufacturers don't like the idea and are reluctant to execute their obligations. In reality why should a manufacturer have to sell its engines? The Red Bull engine "crisis" never gave us an answer. The FIA or Liberty should have contracted an independent engine shop like Ilmor, Cosworth, AER, or Ricardo, and financed it to build engines available to any independent team. The money would come from the FOM redistribution at the end of each season. Without a system in place, there could be a severe shortage of engines if only 1 of the present constructors was to pull out. Ferrari will carry on after 2021, but who can say with certitude that Renault (2 teams), Mercedes (3 teams) or Honda (2 teams) will stay forever? Or that any other new manufacturer will join?
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/142836/wolff-laughed-at-verstappen-call-speculation Wolff laughed at Verstappen call speculation Mercedes team boss Toto Wolff says he has had "quite a laugh" with Max and Jos Verstappen over suggestions he has been calling the Red Bull Formula 1 driver Mercedes team boss Toto Wolff says he has had "quite a laugh" with Max and Jos Verstappen over suggestions he has been calling the Red Bull Formula 1 driver. A report in Germany quoted Red Bull motorsport advisor Helmut Marko as saying Wolff "repeatedly" calls five-time grand prix winner Verstappen and has done so for months. Verstappen joined Red Bull during his first season of car racing in European Formula 3 back in 2014, having opted for that junior programme over Mercedes as he pursued a swift move into F1. The 21-year-old said in the build-up to the Chinese Grand Prix weekend that he was surprised to read the story, and found it quite "funny" because "I never speak to Toto, he never calls me, he doesn't even have my number". Wolff said: "We had quite a laugh about it all three of us. "I haven't got Max's number and I've never spoken to him on the phone. "As Max rightly said I've known Jos for a long time and I would consider him a friend. "We talk about babies and go-karting and when do we put our babies in a go-kart together and which team are we going to set up. "There is no talking about Max nor his contract.
Max Verstappen hopes Red Bull will be ready to challenge Formula 1 rivals Mercedes and Ferrari at all tracks from the halfway point of the 2019 season. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/142852/verstappen-hopes-red-bull-catches-up-by-midseason Red Bull's start to the season was made challenging by an inability to fully understand its chassis after Pierre Gasly's pre-season crash and has admitted engine partner Honda still needs to make gains on Mercedes and Ferrari. With a host of car and engine updates expected, Verstappen believes Red Bull could be a consistent challenger by mid-season. Speaking exclusively to Autosport at the headquarters of Jumbo ahead of its Jumbo Racing Days event at Zandvoort, Verstappen said: "I think we still need to add more horsepower, but we are a little bit closer. "On the car side, we also need to improve to really compete. We'll see. "Hopefully halfway through the season, we won't have to say we can only fight on circuits without [long] straights. "We are still losing time on the straights, that's a fact. Especially compared to Ferrari. They found something this year but nobody knows how. "They have done their homework and we have to make sure we get closer with the chassis and the engine." Although Verstappen has outlined areas for Red Bull to improve, he says he is content with his start to 2019. "In general we can be satisfied with our start," Verstappen said. "I think no one expected we would compete for wins right away - I don't think that's realistic. With a new engine partner, it takes some time. "I am very pleased with Honda so far. The engine is very reliable. Power could always be better, but we knew that.
Ferrari are wrong to be using team orders to favour Sebastian Vettel over Charles Leclerc, their former driver Gerhard Berger says. -- https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/47982205 The Austrian, 59, who had two spells at Ferrari during a career in which he won 10 races, said the team should be allowing the drivers an "open game". "Much as I like Sebastian and rate him, here is a boy [Leclerc] who is capable of winning the championship," he said. Ferrari have tried to employ team orders in all three races this season. They have based their policy on a belief that Vettel, as a four-time champion, is more likely to emerge as their title contender this season than Leclerc, who is in only his second year in F1. Team boss Mattia Binotto has said that Vettel will be favoured in "50-50 situations" but said at the last race in China that the situation could change. But Berger, who was team boss of Toro Rosso when Vettel scored his maiden victory at the 2008 Italian Grand Prix, said: "I don't think it's enough to say, 'Well this one is experienced, this one is not experienced so we take the card of the experience'. I think let it run."
view from someone's hotel room this morning. End of the long straight into T1 (building that has the F1 poster..."Ignites the city") Image Unavailable, Please Login
Hard to believe the highest ever top speed of 385 KPH in F1 was recorded during qualy back in 2016 by Bottas in the Williams! Will be interesting to see if anyone can beat that this year.
