250 GT SWB 'revival'

GTO Engineering is obviously a pool of talent, but I never understood why they couldn't get the grill right on these.

john

 

Fair enough and wasn’t trying to justify just thought heavy usage (didn’t happen) and earlier build (doesn’t sound like the case) would explain the kinks. Given someone on the front end of the process would you do it? I have owned classics and had issues so not sure what’s to be expected and what’s above and beyond.

 

I wouldn’t hesitate to do a build with them if you’ve already convinced yourself of the value proposition. Just have a clear discussion on fit and finish expectations. If the car was delivered today, especially at current pricing levels, I would push back on them to make it perfect. The only downside for me is that I’m going to incur costs that I hadn’t planned, pushing my investment higher then I’d like. Not the end of the world, just a little disappointing. My fault for not personally inspecting the car with my own eyes. Best of luck!

 

Makes sense and appreciate the advice. I plan to go over early in the build to check in. Given they have restored many I wonder if things like the window gaskets are Oem or identical to original? If so, I may see if they can upgrade to newer tech.

 

I am currently restoring a 250 SWB replica that was build by Chris Lawrence many years ago. I have had remarkable help from GTO Engineering not only for the supply of parts but they have always allowed me to visit and inspect original and replicas when I have needed to get specific details right.

I believe this must be an early car because I have taken some similar images of a car that has been built recently and I was surprised how different they look.

 

That looks so much cleaner. What’s is your take comparing the original to the the new. Are they pretty much dead on or can you tell which is the recreation? More pics if you have them!

 

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I think the replica stacks up pretty well compared to the original, a lot of attention is spent on detail and I was impressed with the enthusiasm and knowledge of the tech's working on the cars.

I have attached a few more detail shots, I do not want to post complete vehicle shots with out there permission. I also got to see the California spyder which was beautifully put together.


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I imagine it is a tough judgement call when building a copy, do you replicate the flaws of the original, or actually improve on them to modern standards, thus then making the copy stand out as being too good!

 

Some say they are trying to dodge a copyright issue.....

 

Copied 2129 GT's front grille, unfortunately after it had been repaired/modified in 1962. See here.

 

I believe Marcel has commented before that the GTO examples are hybrids, based around elements of all the different specs, so that they do not identically replicate any car that left Maranello, in order to avoid intellectual property issues.

 

what are the differences?

 

DK explain some of it far better than I could, and I am sure the guys on here can fill in the gaps, its not my field of knowledge.

 

Interesting. I am going to chat w them about the grill. Thanks for the additional photos and comments! That California is pretty and they offered me that as an option but I love the 250 Swb so much and I plan to track it so having a roll cage is a huge plus.
Chris- any pics you can share of the car you are working on?

 

Their comments regarding the grilles on their SWB Revival cars will be of interest.

 

Throughout its production, there were additional differences to the many that James Cottingham mentions in the video above, and I don't think you can categorise 250 GT SWB Berlinettas into just Series 1 and Series 2 cars as it constantly evolved throughout its production. 2 were actually built in 1959, 1539 GT and 1613 GT.

Very early cars did not have the front and rear fender cooling vents, no recess in the rear boot for the number/licence plate, no front side indicator lights and the round brake cooling vents in the nose were not sleeved in an oval shape as they later were and not even a cabin cooling air vent in the rear window.

Bumperettes became optional on the full alloy bodied competizione cars, SNAPS exhausts were introduced on the competizione cars, rear bumpers evolved from being one piece to three piece, trim was aluminium on competizione cars and chromed steel on street cars, the addition of round side indicator lights that evolved into those with a teardrop shape, competizione cars generally had perspex side and rear windows whereas they were glass on the street "lusso" cars, door windows varied from sliding up, sliding horizontally and wind up. There was minimal sound proofing on competizione cars. The rear window became slightly larger and more wrap around. The floor was double skinned on street cars and single skinned on competizione cars. Wheels became wider and reduced in diameter from 16" to 15". There were differences in the brakes with there being Bendix servos on the street cars, but a booster pump for the front brakes on competizione cars. Street cars had a steel casing for the gearbox and ribbed aluminium on the competizione versions. Very late street cars had a Pininfarina badge on the front fenders.

The 1961 Competzione cars had bodies made from very thin aluminium (as well as a number of other mechanical differences including a very hot motor with big 46 barrel Webers), had bug deflectors on the bonnet, a fuel splash guard over the left rear mufflers. Regarding the chassis on these cars I don't think they were the same as the 1960 cars, but were actually lightened and stiffened with square tubing in places in comparison to all other SWB chassis.

Of course there will be more differences than I have listed above.

 

Curious about the subtle design differences between the real thing and the revival, made necessary to avoid infringing Ferrari's IP rights.

It is my understanding that the duration of IP rights for such a design lasts for 70 years under EU law. If the first 250 SWB was made in 1959, theoretically someone should be able to make precise copies (without Ferrari badges) in 2029 (and "production" 250TR's are only 5 years away).

 

It's interesting that he recognizes the later car as having "a more aggressive stance". I find it to be the other way around.

john

 

There is no difference. It’s a copy. The IP rights are complex but follow what Singer does very carefully and you will find the answer. I had a very detailed discussion with Rob’s IP lawyer. It’s all legal. Getting the thing legitimately road legal in certain jurisdictions is more complex. U.K. pretty easy I’m told but I’m no expert here.

 

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Is this a GTO Engineering? It looks pretty good. For sale for $1.3m

https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=326877536&damageUnrepaired=NO_DAMAGE_UNREPAIRED&isSearchRequest=true&makeModelVariant1.makeId=8600&pageNumber=1&ref=dsp&scopeId=C&sfmr=false&sortOption.sortBy=specifics.firstRegistration&sortOption.sortOrder=ASCENDING&searchId=5b3c2a0e-a639-2784-6ac8-6f4fe30e817f

 

Given the price point I would guess yes but others may know better. That’s about where they are trading from what I have heard.

 

Had my call with GTO last week to start to fine tune the package. Couldn’t have been nicer…it’s was a real pleasure to chat with them about this car and many of the others. I was actually thinking of having them create a small GTO Engineering badge I could put on the boot so that it is clear this is a rebody. I am keeping the original engine, gearbox etc. Also reusing every part possible…badge, ash tray, tools, etc that I can. I want as much of the original as possible but with a rust free new aluminum swb body on it. I am going grey with either a beige interior or maroon/red. Still a later 2023 delivery. Btw…they are redesigning the grill to be more similar to other swb’s. As noted here they did the tool room copy off of a very accomplished swb that had shunted its front and wasn’t rebuilt to the more precise version from the factory.

 

Regretfully, I simply don't get it. Why own a 'quasi' real car?

My stepfather had a Picasso, which he sold many many years after we went to Picasso's house to commission it.

I was very young, and you could go and chat with him, provided you paid, just as you could go to Maranello and commission a Ferrari
and talk directly with The 'Drake'. He was an affable fellow (EF), if you had the 'right' provenance and beaucoup Lire.
You can still go to Carrara and have a smallish David made for your front lawn. Not an inexpensive one, that is.

This other solution, aka GTO, is like getting a Picaso (sic), but pretty good with brushes.
Pretty pathetic if you ask me, but in this age of choosing your sex when you realize your calling, anything goes.
Disclaimer: No offence or prejudice in any way, shape or form.

By the way, my daughter, pretty good with brushes, can paint you a Va Dinci, or a Pegaso (wait, that's a car )

Still lovely cars these wannabe, GTORARI, if that is your hubris, yet slightly arguable in my taste, or lack thereof.

Regards, Alberto

 

Pretty simple. Love the looks and have a donor in bad shape and not worth the money of to restore. I drive my cars and track them, taking a 10m car and possibly shunting is beyond my comfort level. Being able to use this and not fret is a big reason why. I own modern ferraris but no real classics. no offense taken…to each his own and it’s my car so I can live it. Plus, Can’t drive a Picasso. I look at this way, you see a house you really like and you design your own after it….who cares. Even if it is after a famous architect. As noted above, not try to pose this as real thus the badging from Gto engineering. Why should we only allow those that have access to handful of originals enjoy them…most sitting a very nice garage and not on the street. Someone even noted on another thread that parking an original on the street to go out to dinner is insane. I find that concept kind of insane. It’s a car! I park my GTS in middle spot at the grocery. If these cars just sit because they are to valuable to enjoy, I think we have all lost the plot. I think of this in the same vain as singer. Porsche fans have mostly embraced but ferraris are a third rail. Not to mention…Every review I have read says the car is brilliant. And I am keeping the engine and running gear tans not modifying…so it will have the soul of a Ferrari. And what did Enzo always say, “you buy a Ferrari and we throw the car in for free” or something like that.

 

Hello James, you are absolutely right, and I mean it.
My rambles are generic, not personal. I say, if you wish to do anything you
really are happy about, then do it. You will never regret it! It is your personalized Ferrari.
Just got a new suit and a new soul for an otherwise car that may not be your dream.
I have done transformations to other cars, and they are mine to paint pink! Loved the result.
Good for you James!

Regards, Alberto

PS. Regardless, the conversions are truly spectacular