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Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by amenasce, Dec 26, 2003.
What is the ultimate Vintage Ferrari ?
I saw this year at the Spa Ferrari Days the 250 GTO #4757 and a 330 P3 #0844 in action. I was in the pitlane when they where both racing (250 GTO in Grid B and 330P3 in Grid C) and it was really amazing to see them racing. It was not the first time that I saw that 250 GTO racing. But I'd never seen a 330 P3.
A 335S is also a great car. But I have no experence with this car, so I couldn't accually tell you anything about it.
I more prefer the 250TR model '57. My passion of Ferraris begun with 250TR #0748TR. When I was a little boy and I saw an advertisement of Symbolic Motor Car Company. The ad showed a very nice pic of the car and it was priced $3,500,000. As young kid the price was like whow.
I saw this year at the Spa Ferrari Days #0718TR and #0738TR. And a couple of weeks ago I saw #0742TR. If you see this car racing it's really wonderful. I like the fact that it's an open car. You only have an headrest, so if you are in the car you can almost look 360° around ya.
My aviator shows a real 500 Mondial. I know the son of the owner (and so the owner also a little bit). This is also a great car too, but I more like the 3-litre engine fitted in a 250TR.
So the 250TR is my ultimate vintage car.
kevin , i too was at the Spa Ferrari Days 2003 ! And that 330 P3 was amazing ! Esp considering how wet the track was !
I saw the italian TR too..loved how the owner left it casually in the parking under the pouring raing !
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During the Grid C race, so when the 330 P3 was racing, I was raining really hard, so we take place under the podium. And a guy of the SF was standing the hole time next to me. When the race was finished and the drivers where on the podium. I saw that same SF guy was giving the prizes to the drivers on the podium. Then the speaker said that that SF guy was Andrea Galezzi, a director at Ferrari SpA !!!
The red 250TR #0718TR is accually not a good car. I inspected the car in the pitlane and paddock and saw that the steering wheel is really a fake one. And there were 2 big holes in the 'carozzeria', because someone fitted a roll-bar on the car a couple of years ago. But now the roll-bar is taken off, but the hole are still there :-( so not really nice, for such an expensive car.
But the sound was good.
Er, the REAL 250 TR chassis 0718TR is silver with a red stripe, and is based in Canada. That car does in fact have a slightly smaller steering wheel so the owner, who is a large man, can fit comfortably in the car. It also has a roll bar, as it is actively raced by its owner. My recollection is that the roll bar is fitted so that there are no holes cut in the bodywork. (The owner is very careful about this sort of thing.)
I'm not sure what you saw, but it sounds like a replica (to be nice) or a counterfeit (to be accurate).
Sorry Old Guy,
You are totaly right (good noticed, thanks) that #0718TR is grey with a red stripe. I was actually talking about #0716TR. But I mistakely wrote #0718TR. Well with all that different chassisnumbers. It looks like you as 'Old Guy', you memory is better then mine as youngster
Clic on the following link and you will see it's #0716TR:
Thanks for letting know
For me, it's the 250 GTO. Nothing beats it for looks, and I just love its history and its specialness.
trkevin, that's so funny about the TR - the same thing applies to me. I still have the Symbolic ad somewhere; it had a black background on the page, and the photo of the TR was at the top of the page. And the price and the looks made me fall in love. I'll see if I can find it...
zjpj, you mean this ad. I also still have it.
Much like a new born being imprinted with the image of it's mother I think the one we're drawn to is the one who's image is seared into our sub concious.
These are all wonderfull but quite different. IMHO it's only by driving can you really know. It's much like that cheerleader you lusted after in highschool. Until you stop looking at her and start talking to her can you really know whether a night time or a lifetime is going to be more enjoyable.
Do you have any experience with the other 3 ?
I've driven 250GTO's and like them very much. They are very beautiful.
I almost bought one in the late 60ies for $6.5K including a trailer.
Wish I had...
Including a trailer ? !! Wow
Too bad you didnt..it would have made a perfect companion for the P4 !
How about the SWB ? Have you driven those ?
Yes.SWB's are wonderfull as well. A 250GTO or a SWB are very usable.
This is not easy...4 really awesome Ferrari.
But I have to go with the 330 P4...Its damn beautiful and whenever I hear that 4.0 liter V12 engine, I have this feeling that I can't explain.
P4, the rest are great in all respects, but the P4 is what got me into reading up on classic racing and going to shows and collecting pics. Basically what the Testarossa did for me in the 80's, but instead of getting me into sports cars, the P4 got me into older LeMans racers.
Just found this pic.....Gorgeous !
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That's it! Sweet.
Not the ultimate but this one, is in my TOP 10 of the most beautifull!!!
Gordon Tatum P4 Spyder 1968.The number one is the 250 GTO.
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Kalidengas, that's GORGEOUS...!!!
This thread needs a boat load of more pictures... i've never heard of a 335 S... i haven't seen a P4 in person (yet)... The only 250GTO i've seen in person was serial number 2819; what the French nicknamed "la camionette" at the 1962 Le Mans...
2819 isn't a GTO. Count Volpe had it built (a rebody of a 250 SWB chassis) because he couldn't buy a GTO. He had been one of the backers of ATS, which was up by people who left Ferrari after the '61 season.
i've seen in several publications, 2819 noted as The 250 GTO Bread Van; you're right that it was a 250 GT SWB, however, it's my understanding that a GTO evoluzione engine was installed in it by a rather famous gentleman (please excuse me as his name escapes me at the moment- i can go home and look it up, but i'm sure you know who i'm talking about)... You raise an issue i've recently pondered, though... Is 2819 officially a 250 GT or is it, officially, a 250 GTO...?
Going by the name under which you post, , i'd venture to say you know more than i, so i'm hoping you can shed some light on this for me now that you've mentioned it... Thanks...
DES wrote, "You raise an issue i've recently pondered, though... Is 2819 officially a 250 GT or is it, officially, a 250 GTO...?
Going by the name under which you post, , i'd venture to say you know more than i..."
Well, DES, thanks for the compliment...I think. Too much of my knowledge is from being there over the years, and that means I'm getting to be a really old guy.
Anyway, there were 36 250 GTOs built, the chassis numbers well known. An additional three cars, technically 400 Superamericas, are or were bodied as GTOs, and are frequently included in the list of "real" GTOs. Purists will tell you the right number is 36.
The "Breadvan" isn't on that list, as it was and is not a GTO. Sachs (first name escapes me at the moment) may have installed at GTO engine, although I don't recall that story. He was the one who painted the car black and red, and drove it on the roads around the Cote d'Azur, and was arrested in at least one case for driving WAY too fast..
In any case, the chassis is considered to define the car, not the engine. Once upon a time there was a (real) 250 GTO engine installed for a while in a 250 GTE 2+2. The engine was later removed, but can you imagine finding that situation today, in at old GTE barn find? A real GTO engine is worth at least $300-500K.
(On the other hand, there is a TREMENDOUS amount of detailed information out there. Almost every early or important Ferrari is known, its history and chain of ownership known, if the original engine has gone elsewhere, where it has gone, and so on. You'd be really surprised how well the seroius Ferrari historians stay in contact, and how much information is available and exchanged.)
Gotta' get ready to go out for dinner. Happy New Year!
According to Alan Boe's recent article in Cavallino (based on research by Marc Sonnery with comments from Count Volpi), Gunther Sachs von Opel was arrested and 2819 GT impounded once. The car never belonged to Sachs, it was only on loan from Volpi at the time. It was actually Giovanni Agnelli who borrowed 2819 GT from Volpi and had it painted in the red/black paint scheme. According to the Count, Agnelli had ordered his butler to paint the car black (to look like a hearse) but the butler ran out of paint befor the job was completed and had to improvise with the black stripes at the front.
As for the GTO engine theory, the article states that the engine was actually modified to include many GTO upgrades, but it is not a GTO engine.
Good to see you back Mr Ausbrooks !
LOL, i was just teasing, i meant nothing by it...
Oh, no, i know...! i spoke with one historian on the phone just a few hours ago...! It was such a pleasure finally having the opportunity to finally speak with him...!
In any case, i have SO MUCH to learn and that's why i'm here...
i never knew about the 3 400 Superamericas or the 250 GTE 2+2... There's a lot of information all over the place; some of it is erroneous as i've come to learn the hard way, but i keep my eyes and ears open and cross reference everything i've picked up with other people (such as yourself, Wayne, etc.) and eventually the truth unfolds... i look forward to learning EVERYTHING about serial number 2819... Riding in it became an instant volume in my life's library and i want that volume to be inked from the same history it created...
See, now i never knew any of that... i gotta read everything; EVERYTHING...!