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250 Le Mans 5899

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Timmmmmmmmmmy, Dec 12, 2014.

  1. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    After the 6045 thread, I am ALMOST scared to post this, but hey someone has to entertain the children.

    1964 Ferrari 250 LM by Scaglietti | Arizona 2015 | RM AUCTIONS

    They have subtly explained the official version of what happened to #5899 when owned and made into the LM-P and as such they could well be correct. The estimate is $9.5 million or more.

    If I may be so bold please begin the debate but lets remember,

    A - Keep it civil
    B - Remember a lot of supposition is just that
    C - Endless circular arguments get nowhere

    Lastly by all means keep an open mind and do join in the discussion but dont feel that you need to slander a storied but still very cool car. because its way too easy and prevalent for someone to join Ferrarichat hide behind a fake name and claim car X is a fake with no proof whatsoever.

    Enjoy
     
  2. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    Interesting.

    I would have been interested in it at 2004 prices. In 2014 (or 2015) prices, it will sell for more than mongrel should.

    Matt
     
  3. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    True, although all of the prices are nuts, you could have bought one of the best 250LM back in 2000 for $2 million OR 2 California's for that much. They are just 2 of a huge number of the very best cars and now 275 GTB's are 3 to 5 million, Daytona convertibles are 2 to 4 million and California's are 10 to 15 million. The prices are crazy....Hell a good 250LM would easily be $20 - 25 million now. Maybe a lot more.
     
  4. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    Ho-Ho- Ho. Once again we get the entertaining opportunity to see if in the words of sage David Hannum and Buzz Lightyear "There's a sucker born every minute." and "To Infinity and Beyond"
     
  5. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    True
     
  6. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    And so it begins. That maybe. But don't tell me you claim to own the real #5899 per chance? LOL
     
  7. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    #7 babci, Dec 12, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 12, 2014
    Own the real #5899 if it's reality is determinable? Nope. Just in for the laughs of seeing if all the auction company, associated sellers, historian pundits, chat players etc. hype and chumming can hook another fish with more $ than brains as in the past and break the old $11.550 Mil record. Happy Holidays to all. Back after the auction.
     
  8. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    Hooyah! We're off to the races once more.

    "because its way too easy and prevalent for someone to join Ferrarichat hide behind a fake name and claim car X is a fake with no proof whatsoever."

    Nice except it seems you forgot to include in your statement that the same can be said for anyone making the claim the car is original/real without providing any real documented proof either.
     
  9. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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  10. rcraig

    rcraig F1 Rookie

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    This car does not have a "storied" history. It has history. It has now been restored to original like most of the old Ferrari race cars.
     
  11. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    That car is gorgeous.
     
  12. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    Interesting. I guess it depends on the definition of "storied". Suppose "well worn" could be appropriate according to barchetta.com (excerpted below). One might say it all depends on your point of view.

    5/sep/12 Mittholz-Kandersteg hillclimb Werner Biedermann #46
    65 - crashed & written off while Biedermann was on his way to Engelberg
    66 - remains to Hans Illert, Feldmeilen, CH
    - restored by shortening chassis and fitting Porsche Carrera 6 bodywork 250LM p131
    - called Illert LM-P
    66 - raced by Herbert Mueller, Illert, Heini Walter - Squadra Tartaruga 250LM p19
    66/aug/20-21 St. Ursanne Les Rangiers hillclimb Hans Illert #98
    66/aug/28 dna Sierre-Montana-Crans hillclimb Hans Illert #197 or 5905 ?
    66/sep/11 1st IC Mitholz-Kandersteg hillclimb Hans Illert PS 10/66 p29
    66/sep/24-25 1st IC 5th National hillclimb, Eigenthal Hans Illert #86
    66/oct/02 5th Aerodrome race, Tulln-Langenlebarn Hans Illert
    66/oct/16 1st IC Donau Cup, Vienna-Aspern Herbert Mueller #88 250LM p98
    67 - displayed at Zurich Racing Car Show
    67 Int. ADAC race, Norisring Hans Illert #2 250LM p101
    67/may/21 1st SAR hillclimb, Schwarzenberg-Bodele Hans Illert #61
    67/aug/20 St. Ursanne-Les Rangiers hillclimb Heini Walter #91
    67 Turckheim-Trois Epis hill Heini Walter FW 38 p58
    67/aug/27 dna Ollon-Villars hillclimb Hans Illert #211 or 5905 ?
    67 - Pierre Sudan, Poststr. 13, Zug, CH
    67/oct/08 1st IC Flugplatzrennen Innsbruck Pierre Sudan
    68 - engine swopped with David Piper for a 330P-engine
    69/apr - Autoreparatur Handels- & Verwertungs-GmbH, Vienna, A
    69 - Stefan Sklenar, Vienna, A
    69/jun/29 11th OA 200 miles Nuremberg, Norisring Stefan Sklenar #14
    69 2nd IC Intern. Solitude race, Hockenheim Stefan Sklenar
    69/oct/05 10th GP Tirol, Innsbruck Stefan Sklenar
    69 - body destroyed in an accident
    70/jan/07 - remains sold to Guenther Breyer, Vienna, A
    7. - remains discovered by Paul Blancpain, Matran, CH
    74/sep - remains to René Widmer, CH
    76 - remains to Dr. Paul Schouwenburg, NL via Rob de la Rive Box RB p67
    7. - original engine traded back from Piper
    77/jun - Eric Stewart, UK - pop star, part of "10cc" pop duo 250LM p133
    77 - recreated by Rosso Racing Ltd./Victor Norman with reportedly a new chassis. None of the bodywork original altough engine maybe.
     
  13. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    #13 lgs, Dec 15, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2014
    History has every car: " ... David Piper in England had built at least two or eventually three brand new chassis for 250 LMs during 1980-81. One of these new chassis frames was used for the reconstruction of 250 LM S/N 5899 which was then owned by Mr. Eric Stewart in Great Britain. The rebuild was done by Rosso Limited/Victor Norman in England, using a few original parts. They also built a complete new body for LM 5899 but its shape is wrong since the roof section is too flat and the front end not correct like the original Scaglietti nose. In fact, one could say that LM 5899 is a replica, since there were nearly no original parts left to build the new car. ... "
     
  14. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    But it has clear continuous history so whether most of the parts have been replaced or not it is still the same car. I note the ad does not mention a new chassis being made though ...

    Thankfully nobody tried to make another 5899 so all good.

    All these factors affect sale price and the cars collectibility and yes there are far more original 250LM's out there but 5899 is what it is.
    Pete
     
  15. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    I might be wrong but wasn't there a "5899" in Japan? Or am I getting it mixed up with another storied car?
     
  16. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Same car I believe:
    Most interesting though they make a clear statement that the car has it's original chassis:
    Pete
     
  17. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    Right, but according to Barchetta (yes I know, not the greatest source) there was a replica made using 5899's S/N. Here's what they quote as history:

    9. - complete replica created using this number by Brandoli, I
    94 - Pierre Fandel, Bitburg, D
    97 - traded in for a pre-war Mercedes with Rolf Bunte, D
    99 - stored at Modena Motorsport, D
     
  18. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    #18 PSk, Dec 15, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2014
    Oh. That muddies the water somewhat, especially with this comment:
    Pete
     
  19. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    +1 Great info thanks again
     
  20. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    #20 babci, Dec 16, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2014


    "original chassis was sent to Ferrari’s Assistenza Clienti in Modena and subsequently William Vaccari for restoration"

    Ho hum. Same old claim to fame story statement as made in the #6045 chassis catalogue description once again being offered with no documentary(photo of invoice of repairs or otherwise)proof to support it in the catalogue description of #5899.

    The question if the barchetta.com info is to be believed and correct is: What was actually left after the various accidents, cuts, shorting and recreation by Victor Norman and which/what was the original chassis sent to Vaccari?- the cut shortened one from : 65 - crashed & written off while Biedermann was on his way to Engelberg 66 - remains to Hans Illert, Feldmeilen, CH
    - restored by shortening chassis and fitting Porsche Carrera 6 bodywork 250LM p131
    - called Illert LM-P or the one from the remains from the: 69 - body destroyed in an accident -70/jan/07 - remains sold to Guenther Breyer, Vienna, or the one from: 77 - recreated by Rosso Racing Ltd./Victor Norman with reportedly a new chassis?

    Perhaps the Magic Marcel will generously chime in and provide illumination, answers and proof if he has it and feels it is important enough for us mere mortals to know since he seems to have prepared a detailed report being used by RM in the catalogue disruption to help market it.
     
    tomgt likes this.
  21. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    Hey maybe you are right. But then again maybe you are very very wrong. A prime example would have to be that maybe the #5899 that was in Germany is the one and the same car, maybe it was a fake, maybe it was whatever. Marcel literally wrote the book on 250LM and if says its a spade, then I suggest you better get digging bcos 1 thing I am certain of is that Marcel's reputation is second to none and he will be clear what it is and isn't, more so than Ferrari or any other dealer. IMO........ Hopefully he will chip in and state what he thinks.
     
  22. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    #22 babci, Dec 16, 2014
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    "then I suggest you better get digging"

    I already dug. Perhaps I was not being abundantly clear. I am only pointing out what is out there now on barchetta.com, what was in the RM catalogue description for #6045 and is in the current RM on line description now for #5899 simply to illustrate the confusion it can cause and posing questions. Anything is possible until all the unknowns are clarified with real documented proof. I am not insinuating anything nor do I believe you are. I am only inviting and hoping for Marcel to post exactly what is needed to clear the air if he will and can.
     
  23. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Note "this" car has the important Ferrari Classiche, so from now on forever this is #5899.
    Pete
     
  24. babci

    babci Formula Junior
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    #24 babci, Dec 16, 2014
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    Raise a glass and a Hip Hip Hoorah For Ferrari Classiche the ultimate truth and authority for one and all.
     
  25. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    lol ... agree, but close to impossible to challenge unless you have bottomless pockets.
    Pete
     

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